Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register


Field fortifications - General Civil War Talk - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1 Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3   
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 05:03 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
41st Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Now that's unfortunate. I'd have liked to have seen the reference. Guess I phrased the question wrongly.



 Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 05:18 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
42nd Post
javal1
Grumpy Geezer


Joined: Thu Sep 1st, 2005
Location: Tennessee USA
Posts: 1503
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Correct way to phrase the question:

"I have to ask where you, Walker, got the idea that Sherman's pioneers were black laborers. "

Wrong way to phrase the question:

"Now and then, someone drops a steaming pile of bull doodoo on the path of learning....."



 Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 06:02 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
43rd Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Totally admitted, Javal. I was most certainly out of line and overboard. And I do that now and then. I'd ask only that our people recognize that I can and do come off as a dork. I am not a reason to bail. If you feel oppressed because of what I have asked or commented on, you might be a bit too delicate to play on civilwarinteractive.



 Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:42 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
44th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Ole; you asked for sources on black laboreres being the only Pioneers in Sherman's Army.   This is a patently incorrect statement w/ nothing I've ever read to back such a statement up.  Strongly worded?  Probably.  bad geriatric Ole, no lutefisk.  There were typically 20 pioneers per Regiment w/ a lot of contrabands earning rations and pay alongside, how many, I've read as many as 7000 recently freed slaves joined up w/ Shermans Army in Ga & SC in such a capacity w/ a large number marching in the Grand Review. 


You asked for some sources Ole... Pioneer data is spread thinly throughout.

Barnard, George N.,  Photographic Views of Sherman’s Campaign, Dover Publications 1977.

Bishop, Judson, Narrative of the Second Regiment, reprinted from Minnesota in the Civil War and Indian War, Park Genealogical Books.

Bishop, Judson W., The Story of a Regiment, North Star Press, 2000.

Brown, Alonzo, Narrative of the Fourth Regiment, reprinted from Minnesota in the Civil War and Indian War, Park Genealogical Books.

Coburn, Mark, Terrible Innocence General Sherman At War, Hippocrene Books, 1993.

Carter, Samuel, The Siege of Atlanta, 1864, Bonanza Books.

Cox, Jacob D., Campaigns of the Civil War.-IX. Atlanta, Castle Books, 2002.

Cox, Jacob D., Campaigns of the Civil War.-X. The March to the Sea-Franklin and Nashville, Castle Books, 2002.

Fitch, John., Annals of the Army of the Cumberland, Stackpole Books, 2003.

Glatthaar, Joseph T., The American Civil War, The war in the West 1863-1865, Osprey Publishing, 2001.

Glatthaar, Joseph T., Forged in Battle The Civil War Alliance of Black Soldiers and White Officers, The Free Press, 1990.

Glatthaar, Joseph T., The March to the Sea and Beyond, New York University Press, 1985.

Griffith, Paddy, Battle In the Civil War Generalship and Tactics in America 1861-65, Fieldbooks, 1986.

Griffith, Paddy, Battle Tactics of the Civil War, Yale University Press, 2001.

Hitchcock, Henry, Marching with Sherman, University of Nebraska Press, 1995.

Johnson, Mark W. That Body of Brave Men, Da Capo Press, 2003.

McPherson, James M., Hallowed Ground, Crown Journeys, 2003.

McPherson, James M., Marching Toward Freedom, Facts on File, Inc,1991.

McPherson, James M., The Negro’s Civil War, Vintage Books, 1965.

Phisterer, Frederick, Campaigns of the Civil War Supplementary Volume Statistical Record of the Armies of the United States, Castle Books, 2002.

Sherman, William T., Memoirs of William T Sherman, DeCapo Press1984.

Smith, Mark A., & Sokolosky, No Such Army Since the Days of Julius Caesar: Sherman’s Carolinas Campaign from Fayetville to Averasboro, Ironclad Publishing, 2005.

Trudeau, Noah Andre, Like Men of War, Little Brown & Company, 1998.

Wiley, Bell Irvin, The Life of Billy Yank, Louisiana State University Press, 1978.

Wiley, Bell Irvin, The Life of Johnny Reb, Louisiana State University Press, 1978.

 



 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 01:35 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
45th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

http://www.thecivilwargroup.com/pioneer.html

Outstanding article on the Pioneer Brigade.

I knew I could find it if I looked hard enough... imagine the egg on my face when I found the link in my favorites folder. heh oh well nobody ever called me terribly bright.



 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 02:19 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
46th Post
susansweet
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: California USA
Posts: 1420
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Thanks Johan for the information .  Very informative

susan



 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 03:19 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
47th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Thanks for the link Shane, And the soothing words. But your hat and pipe still suck. Are we going to do another thingy at Motor Mill this year? This is not going to be good year for playing. There is Charleston and Boise and Sioux Falls on the schedule, as well as Iowa City. Not much room or funds to go for another one. It might, however fall into a crack. It remains to be seen.

ole



 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:36 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
48th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Motor Mill has taken on a kind of life of its own, public are invited but every year seems to be haphazard about how many show up. So it's become a muster of sorts, more re-enactors less public. Probably 25 or so Infantry this year and maybe no civilians.



 Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 12:39 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
49th Post
Roger
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007
Location: Bedale, North Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 277
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Thanks for posting that link Johan. I only ordered No Better Place to Die : The Battle of Stones River by Peter Cozzens yesterday so quite a coincidence.

Roger



 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 12:56 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
50th Post
connyankee
Member


Joined: Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location: Colchester, Connecticut USA
Posts: 83
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I've enjoyed reading this thread on field fortifications.  civilwarfortifications.com is a great website, as mentioned earlier.  I always like to mention that a good place to go is North Anna Battlefield.  Here you will see some of the finest preserved earthworks anywhere.  This was Lee's famed "inverted V."

Next time you are tooling down I-95, take exit 104, Mt Carmel Church (this is the first tour stop on a 7 stop tour route).  Get a brochure at  Fredericksburg & Spotsylvania Visitors Center or print one here http://www.nps.gov/frsp/nanna.htm  You may also obtain tour guides for Yellow Tavern and Trevilian Station here.

Unlike General Hancock, it's good to have a good map with you for North Anna.  Get out of the car at Stop #5 and take about a one-mile hike into the woods to see some impressive earthworks, including different variations of traverses.  When you've had your fill,  it's only natural to move on to Cold Harbor, then Petersburg. 

Regards to all,

ConnYankee

 



 Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 02:30 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
51st Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Good tips ConnYankee. Thanks.

ole



 Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 01:43 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
52nd Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

And here I've been putting off reading this thread because I thought it might be dry and boring!  (I'm still catching up on the threads I missed last month.)

The information on fortifications is truly fascinating.

"The CW was interesting period in that the tactics did change from a Napoleonistic form of warfare to the trench warfare as was so common in WWI. It's tactics were the predecessor of the Great War later to come."

Very important point here!  Remember how, in the W. Va. campaign early in the war, Lee's penchant for "digging in" earned him the derisive nicknames, "The King of Spades" and "Granny Lee".  Well, the soldiers on both sides figured it out fast enough!

My favorite fortification is the rapidly thrown together "Mule Shoe Salient" at Spotsylvania. 

As for the pioneers discussion, I'm emailing with a knowledgable friend about this, as I was also of the belief that a vast number of the pioneers in the Carolina campaign were black.  At the risk of stirring the pot back up to boiling, I'm going to share some of the info he's sent me.  I hope to make it to the library this afternoon to do a bit of fact-checking, but if I can't make it, I'll just share it as is.

 



 Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 04:08 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
53rd Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Good idea, Joanie. If the original assertion is a fact, I will be more than pleased to add that fact to the accumulated data base.

ole



 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 10:15 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
54th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

OK,  I've been having this e-mail discussion with a friend about the whole pioneer thing.  I am generally loathe to write things up without being able to quote direct sources, but I'm never gonna have the time to research this all myself.

Anyway, that's what my friend was for: he researches -  often, the older, very basic stuff - the archives dating back to the war.  For some things he sent me his sources, but others include original research that he doesn't want to share, as they are "finds" for publication.

Anyway, I had a bit to pick and choose from, and for now pulled out two paragraphs from our communications, thought I'd share them.

"It is actually a complicated subject. Sherman did prefer black pioneers at this stage of the war, and his orders for the Savannah Campaign called for the organization of black pioneer battalions.  During the Carolinas campaign elements of three USCT regiments performed pioneer duty with Sherman:  the 106th, the 110th, and the 135th.  Companies of the 106th & 110th joined Sherman at Savannah. The 135th was an entire regiment of freed slaves picked up in Georgia and the Carolinas by the 17th Corps (the only corps to organize the black pioneer battalion that Sherman had ordered).  Although enrolled as an infantry regiment, the 135th only performed pioneer duty and was parceled out to the three divisions of the 17th Corps."

"The majority of the Pioneers in Sherman's Carolina Campaign were black. Sherman had disbanded the "Pioneers"  before Atlanta, actually there is more to it than that. So the "pioneers" of the Carolina campaign were not the earlier cohesive group. The name became a generic title for manual laborers. So what Sherman did was put all the able bodied blacks into the field as pioneers, as well as other manual labor jobs.  He also used the blacks for loading and unloading the ships in Savannah and for guard duty. He refused to have the blacks as regular soldiers on the Carolina Campaign.  There were also whites that did the same work but the MAJORITY on the Carolina Campaign were black. Free, easy, hard working laborers! There are ample examples of white officers, engineers etc. working with the pioneers. It is important to point here was what the pioneers had become and who they were on the Carolina Campaign, as well as the March to the Sea."


I put italics on the last sentence myself, because that kind of summed up my whole difficulty with it.  About a year or two ago I read a book on the march to the sea that had me believing that Sherman added to the poineers from able-bodied freed slaves along the way.

Anyway, don't know if this helps or muddles, but perhaps food for thought?



 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 03:28 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
55th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Helps a lot Joanie, especially in highlighting different usages of the word "pioneers."

ole



 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2008 12:45 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
56th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

That doesn't quite mesh w/ my own research but I've come across the number of approx 7,000 black men acting in the roles of Pioneers for the Carolina's campaign. With the size of Sherman's Army that does make sense. It should also be mentioned that Sherman had no issue w/ those men taking part in the Grand Review; he viewed them as part of his Army and part of the reason it had been so succesful.

A couple of minor compaints and maybe why it doesn't mesh w/ my own research & knowledge on the sucbject. The men doing the loading and unloading ships at Savannah do not appear to have been the same men who went w/ Sherman through the Carolina's but to have been the men who did the job normally. They were well paid for their actions, many were formerly slaves who had never before been paid for their labor.

There seemes to have been an unofficial practice w/in Sherman's Army, any Negro who wants to get something back... put him w/ the Pioneers they never turn away an able back. Some of the fiercest skirmishing in the campaign had pioneers in the thick of it. And the use of the word disbanded in correlation w/ the pioneers isn't quite the right way of putting it; I've made the error in its use too. Sherman broke up the Pioneer Brigade and sent them back to their units in the AoC; Pioneers in Sherman's AoT were along the origianl lines of the pre-war army (20 or so per Regiment)under direct Regimental or Brigade control. Men who were pioneers in the Army of the Cumberland were still Pioneers they just no longer had a seperate chain of command or were under the direct control of the Army Commander.

I actually greatly appreciate the particular detail about the 135th USCT as it clears up a bit of confusion for me as I've seen them listed in different Divisions and Brigades on various Order of Battles and it has confused me quite a bit over the years. That would actually be an appropriate use for a Pioneer or Engineer Regiment and was consistant practice.

I'm gonna paraphrase something I read from a letter years ago. The letters were a collection from a rather racist, more than usual, Illinois Captain. He approached a group of pioneers and demanded some "nigs" to dig his company sinks. White Sgt in charge of the detail told him exactly where he could go as those were "his pioneers and exempt from such mundane detail." While the Captain took umbrage w/ the Sgt and tried to go over his head the Sgt was upheld if maybe scolded a touch for his choice of language. As in the regs Pioneers were exempt from all extra duties to include guard or pickett duty and all such sundry details.

My umbrage over the original contention about black men in Pioneer parties was not that there were none just her assertion that there were no soldiers working beside them... and any time anyone dared to ask for a source you got insulted. There were, quite a few and they were literally working side by side. I think the actual numbers would have been something like three to one but I don't know off hand.



 Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2008 04:38 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
57th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Hey, it wasn't me who was arguing; I just got around to this thread!  It was a "Him", I believe.  And, in all truth, I miss "Him" and wish he would come back.  He had a lot to share, even if it did get kinda hot in here sometime.  I hold that the W. Va. thread which He started is one of the best debates here on the CWi board.



 Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2008 06:29 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
58th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I'm gonna paraphrase something I read from a letter years ago. The letters were a collection from a rather racist, more than usual, Illinois Captain. He approached a group of pioneers and demanded some "nigs" to dig his company sinks. White Sgt in charge of the detail told him exactly where he could go as those were "his pioneers and exempt from such mundane detail." While the Captain took umbrage w/ the Sgt and tried to go over his head the Sgt was upheld if maybe scolded a touch for his choice of language. As in the regs Pioneers were exempt from all extra duties to include guard or pickett duty and all such sundry details.

Which is essentially where I was coming from. There was a difference between a pioneer and a laborer. Every army had its laborers. The pioneer was something else, however laborious his assignment.

ole



 Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2008 06:05 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
59th Post
JoanieReb
Member
 

Joined: Wed Jan 24th, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 620
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Haha - wrong thread.

Back to this one later.

Last edited on Fri Feb 8th, 2008 06:09 pm by JoanieReb



 Posted: Sat Apr 5th, 2008 04:20 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
60th Post
Widow
Member
 

Joined: Tue Sep 19th, 2006
Location: Oakton, Fairfax County, VA
Posts: 321
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Johan, what a great description of digging entrenchments.

Some members of the Bull Run Civil War Round Table have CW entrenchments in their back yards.  They haven't been disturbed by construction, but have eroded somewhat.  Also trees have grown up and will eventually destroy them as the shallow root balls move the soil.

I believe the earthworks were originally built by Confederate troops for the winter encampment of 1861-62.  Control of that part of Fairfax County shifted back and forth several times, so it's possible the Union troops used them too.

Knowing how dense the natural vegetation is here in our Virginia jungle, I wonder how on earth anybody could dig anything.  The shrubs and trees, not to mention briars and poison ivy, cottonmouths and rattlers, ticks and chiggers - you get the idea.  Maybe they threw up their earthworks in open land, cow pastures and corn fields, where there was already a clear field of fire.  And plenty of fence rails to steal.  There weren't any fences left at the end of the war.

Widow



 Current time is 08:06 pmPage:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3   
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.3793 seconds (8% database + 92% PHP). 25 queries executed.