| ||||
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > What Was the Single, Worst Civilian Atrocity in the Civil War? |
| ||||
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > What Was the Single, Worst Civilian Atrocity in the Civil War? |
| Moderated by: javal1 | Page:   1 2 3 4   |
|
|||||||||||||
| What Was the Single, Worst Civilian Atrocity in the Civil War? | Rate Topic |
| Author | Post |
|---|
| Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 07:04 am |
|
21st Post |
|
ole Member 
|
According to the NPS and the American Battlefield Protection Program, Sand Creek is considered a Civil War battle. Yes. According to a great many folks, it was a part of the USCW, as was the Minnesota uprising, but I consider them to be a different rebellion. At the same time. And before. And after. On that, we can agree to disagree. The Indian Wars did not begin when the first European set foot on what is now U.S. soil. It wasn't ours, but we took it anyway. Exactly like most of them took it from who ever plunked the first foot on it. Was Little Crow's tribe the first settlers of Minnesota? No. Was Black Kettle's tribe the first settlers in Colorado? No. They were where they were because they ran someone else's tribe out. Red Cloud, Sitting Bull, Cochise, Geronimo, Big Foot, Chief Joseph, Tecumsah, Sequoia -- there isn't one of them that didn't gain ascendency by shoving someone else out of their territory. Now see what you've made me do?  Rambling off topic. (Like that's a first!)Ole
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 02:50 pm |
|
22nd Post |
|
CleburneFan Member 
|
Ole, I'm impressed with your knowledge of American Indian history. This is an area of my study that I have woefully neglected.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 03:13 pm |
|
23rd Post |
|
TimK Member
|
I too am impressed with people that like to look at the entire picture. In my work I speak with many people that believe the ACW started on July 1, 1863 and ended on July 3. To some, nothing else matters. I also speak with people that feel if it didn't happen in Virginia, it is not American History. Whether people agree or disagree on how to categorize it, I feel it is important to keep an eye on the big picture. For every action in history, there is a reaction. That is why what-ifs don't particularly interest me. Now I'm sorry to ramble and stray off topic. Really, I'm interested to learn the stories of atrocities perpetrated against civilians during the CW. I've googled the ones pointed out and look forward to learning more.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 03:39 pm |
|
24th Post |
|
David White Member 
|
Well if you mention Chambersburg you need to mention the act that spawned it The Burning in the Shennadoah that affected many loyal citizens too.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 05:19 pm |
|
25th Post |
|
The Iron Duke Member 
|
I would like to add two more incidents to the list. The Sacking of Osceola by James Lane who was as much a terrorist as Quantrill. Plus, the Shelton Laurel Massacre in North Carolina.
____________________ "Cleburne is here!" meant that all was well. -Daniel Harvey Hill |
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Nov 12th, 2008 08:11 pm |
|
26th Post |
|
calcav1 Member
|
The burning of the Shenandoah, the "breadbasket of the Confederacy", did have a military justification (try and tell that to the folks without a home!). The Valley was feeding the armies and thus a legit target. Chambersburg on the other hand was burned for one of two reasons, revenge or cash ransom, both of which spell out atrocity. Let's not forget what Ivan Vasilyevich Turchaninov (John Basil Turchin) did to Athens, Alabama. There was no justification for the "Rape of Athens" and the nasty cuss was promoted to Brigadier before his sham of a court martial was even over.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 04:43 pm |
|
27th Post |
|
David White Member
|
calcav: Won't argue your case for Confederate motivation in Chambersburg. However, If burning a farm is a legitimate target to weaken the opponent's war effort, burning the home's of city workers is legitimate too. Even the guy who sweeps the floor at the factory is contributing to the war effort. If you make it hard for him to sweep the floor, you are weakening the opponent's war effort. Granted there is a fine line between legitimate targets and atrocities. In fact for some families in the Shennandoah, a bullet to the head would have been more merciful than the slow starvation and diseases that resulted from the Burning.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 05:14 pm |
|
28th Post |
|
HankC Member 
|
There are 3 incidents usually brought up in such a discussion: 1) the expatriation of female mill workers from Roswell Georgia in 1864, 2) the enslavement of some 400 blacks during Lee's 1863 Pennsylvania campaign, 3) the Lawrence, Kansas massacre in August 1863. I've listed them in reverse order of *my* preference, emphasizing the taking of life, above and beyond destruction of property and deprivation of liberty. HankC
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Thu Nov 13th, 2008 08:06 pm |
|
29th Post |
|
Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352 
|
Hank C, can you do me a favor and give me a source for the 400 enslaved from Lee's 63 campaign. I've heard varying numbers and nome of them seem consistant. Eastern theatre isn't my forte and I can't seem to find ANY reputable source that gives numbers.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Nov 14th, 2008 01:13 pm |
|
30th Post |
|
HankC Member
|
Johan, unluckliy what I most recall is the underlying methodology rather than the actual source. My mind's eye recalls it as a footnote to a journal or magazine article. The post-war Freedman's bureau's records were a virtual census of recently freed slaves. To as great an extent possible, it documented the birthplace and travels of the recently freed, thus providing a somewhat central source for reuniting long- and widely-separated families. These lists were replicated and dispersed to the various offices. As can be expected, individuals list Maryland and Pennsylvania as their homes and report being taken south in the summer of 1863. It struck me at the time as an unexpected lode of information with informative consequences. The reasons get better and better for keeping a journal of readings and notes therof  HankC PS now that I think of it, the library may provide a list the books I've checked out in the last couple of years...
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Nov 14th, 2008 04:09 pm |
|
31st Post |
|
Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
|
Hank, thanks. I've stumbled across similar things and when I first startred my research of the ACW sources didn't seem as important as they do now and neither did footnotes. I've learned the hard way though. I do greatly appreciate the source as it gives me somewhere to start looking when I finally get around to doing it.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Fri Nov 14th, 2008 09:09 pm |
|
32nd Post |
|
HankC Member
|
a number of recent books include beacoup de good stuff in the end notes. The recent trend of end notes back-linking to the text pages is appreciated. Pfanz' books are good examples of additional 'story behind the story' - full paragraphs of background - in the end notes. HankC
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 12:25 am |
|
33rd Post |
|
Captain Crow Progressive Southerner 
|
ole wrote: I do not necessarily disagree with the substance your conclusions Ole -especially since I've probably used some of them myself at one time- but I must ask the question: do the above statements make what was done by the U.S. right? Of course you are most likely correct in asserting that what the Indians had was gained through some form of conflict with their predecessors. Again I must ask...does that make the White man's transgressions justified due to precedence? Maybe I'm becoming a softy or something but I just can't find the reasoning to dismiss the awful acts perpetrated in the name of Manifest Destiny as just another link in some vaguely justifiable Darwinian historical chain.According to the NPS and the American Battlefield Protection Program, Sand Creek is considered a Civil War battle. Okay now I'm off topic too! I am officially putting my soapbox away  .........for now
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 04:03 pm |
|
34th Post |
|
Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
|
Nope, it just makes us the same as the French, British, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, Russians, Chinese, and everybody else.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 11:55 pm |
|
35th Post |
|
CleburneFan Member
|
Johan Steele wrote: Nope, it just makes us the same as the French, British, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, Russians, Chinese, and everybody else. And just wait to see what happens when the men from Outer Space arrive! 
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 01:13 am |
|
36th Post |
|
PvtClewell Member 
|
CleburneFan wrote:
"Klaatu barada nikto"
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 01:23 am |
|
37th Post |
|
ole Member
|
...but I just can't find the reasoning to dismiss the awful acts perpetrated in the name of Manifest Destiny as just another link in some vaguely justifiable Darwinian historical chain. Didn't say it war right or justified, Captain, But I feel compelled to add color to the black and white sketch when a story is only partly told. And Darwin is no justification either -- just an explanation of why all animals do what they do, it's a territorial imperative. Ole 
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 01:40 am |
|
38th Post |
|
The Iron Duke Member
|
Looks like Ole used a razor...
____________________ "Cleburne is here!" meant that all was well. -Daniel Harvey Hill |
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 03:27 am |
|
39th Post |
|
ole Member
|
The new avatar is up? Doesn't show on my screen. Ole
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 11:08 am |
|
40th Post |
|
PvtClewell Member
|
ole wrote:The new avatar is up? Doesn't show on my screen. Yes it is. You appear to be a very likable fellow. Is that true or is it an old picture? (Just pickin with you)
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Current time is 03:36 pm | Page: 1 2 3 4 |
| Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > General Civil War Talk > What Was the Single, Worst Civilian Atrocity in the Civil War? | Top |
