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Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism? - General Civil War Talk - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
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 Posted: Sun Apr 2nd, 2006 07:43 pm
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VirtualCivilWar
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Check out these two stories I just posted links to on my site!

Battle flag won’t fly at Ringgold Depot for Confederate History Month
.....They described the flag as a symbol of hatred and said it should be removed.

news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?show=localnews&pnpID=724&NewsID=706891&CategoryID=11571&on=1


and this one: (a kid was suspended for 5 days for flying a Confederate Flag)


Mexican Flag Displays Stir Debate

School officials said Confederate flags are prohibited on campus because they are associated with racism

http://www.kcra.com/money/8369650/detail.html


What do you think?

Mike
http://www.virtualcivilwar.com



 Posted: Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 12:47 am
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Harry
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To some, the union flag represents racism and oppression. The stars and bars was the flag of a confederation of states which believed it had a better idea on how to do things that concerned them. Yes, there have been groups with racist beliefs that have adopted the stars and bars as their symbol. Does that mean the flag itself suggests racism? No.

All this noise from politicians about what this flag represents and what that flag represents is just that--noise. Each of us have our own beliefs of what the flag--which ever flag it is--represents.

Should the stars and bars be allowed to fly during a reenactment? Absolutely. It is a representation of an historical period. To suggest otherwise displays an ignorance of history.



 Posted: Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 02:23 am
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Basecat
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Evening all.

As mentioned by Harry, and the problem I have with those of today when they use the flag to enhance their ideals, I wonder just how many have even studied the Civil War.  IMHO, they have not.

Harry is most correct about how some feel about the Stars and Stripes, in terms of being a racist flag.  Point I am trying to make, is how can you use a symbol of the 19th century, and try to make it stick with 21st century views??

Regards from the Garden State,

Steve Basic

 

 



 Posted: Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 03:36 am
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Tigerreb
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When this is brought up, I try and expain why the flag was created and what it tired to represent. Also how some groups (KKK, Nazis, etc) have taken the flag and mis-used it. If all else fails, I explain that the US Flag (the good old stars and stripes) is also rascist, in that slavery was legal under this flag from the creation of the US to 1866 (figure 80 some on years). I also bring up that people representing the US Government flew this flag at the same time they gave smallpox infected blankets to the Indians. Some times it works, sometimes not

JIMT

 



 Posted: Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 03:38 pm
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MAubrecht
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I've written and published a ton on this subject, but in an effort not to bore you, I'll submit this brief statement...

Part of preserving history is acknowledging your past. To try to ignore or remove those parts of history that offend some is a blatant act of dishonesty and disrespect. What example are we setting and what disservice are we doing to future generations by trying to erase our past? Why can't we just acknowledge that different people see different things in the "Star and Bars," and that that's OK?



 Posted: Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 05:38 pm
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Art B.
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Hello all...My first post on this particular discussion board.

"Stars and bars" refers to the first national flag of the Confederacy, not the Confederate battle flag, which is the true victim in this misdirected bit of nationalistic, politically incorrect angst.

Take a peek here: http://www.grpflags.com/historical_flags/stars_and_bars.htm

Anyhow, if any Civil War flag should be argued against, it should be the  Confederate national flag [in any of its versions] since it was the one that represented the governing bodies that, in their consititution, championed slavery.

The battle flag, square [not rectangular, that's the naval jack]--solid red--blue X--white stars, has been misapproriated, misrepresented, and used for vile purposes against minorities. The battleflag should be copyrighted and any commercial user of it charged an arm-and-a-leg. I can't believe the UDC hasn't campaigned against the Neo-Nazis, Skinheads, and KKK for absconding with such an important symbol of US history, not just southern US history.

Right, sweep it [the Civil War] under the rug, forget all about it...oh, except for certain parts that certain groups want everybody to now focus upon. It's an unpleasant topic, let's erase it from our history books -- there, now we don't have to face it! Sorry, folks, it's still there, a big lump that'll trip visitors.

Talk about rule by a minority, talk about apartheid in the US! Some few folk squawk to the "right" person or news outlet and, by that little noise, the majority is made to kow-tow and make all the allowances for the small group's sensitivity.

Anyhow, it's getting a bit fascist if you ask me; get rid of that flag, get rid of that book, get rid of that idea, get rid of those people...Where will it end? Hey, that question has been asked before. Here we are, repeating history!

Art B.



 Posted: Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 08:34 pm
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MAubrecht
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Hello Art and welcome to the boards.

You are correct in your statement. I think most people understand that despite the "popular misconception," the traditional term of the "Stars and Bars" historically refers to the National Flag of the Southern Confederacy and not the C.S.A. battle flag. However, our discussion (I think) is in relation to all Confederate banners - which will be referred to throughout as the "Stars and Bars," and/or the "C.S.A. battle flag," as well as the flag of "The Confederate States of America."

The bottom line is that some people refuse to admit that symbology means different things to different people. It all comes down to context (in my opinion). A C.S.A. flag (any Confederate flag) within the context of history or heritage preservation is very different from one that is used in a supremacists rally.



 Posted: Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 08:40 pm
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TimHoffman01
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Art B. wrote:  The battleflag should be copyrighted and any commercial user of it charged an arm-and-a-leg. I can't believe the UDC hasn't campaigned against the Neo-Nazis, Skinheads, and KKK for absconding with such an important symbol of US history, not just southern US history.


Actually both the UDC and the SCV (and I believe the UCV before them) DID try exaclty that.  They had wanted to prevent any business from using it as a logo and political groups or individuals from using it for political purposes.  Short story, the courts ruled that they couldn't do it.  Ironically they sited the same constitutional issues for the Battle Flag that are sited today by opponents of protecting "Old Glory" from acts of preceived desecration.

I would suggest anyone interested read "The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem", by John Coski.  He traces the Battle Flag from development for the armies (there IS a rectangular version by the way, it was for the Army of Tennessee...although Hardees division obtained permission to stick with their original battle flags, the "New Moon" flags) through its (mis)appropriation as a political symbol.  It is very well written and can be quite an eye opener for folks on both sides of "the flag issue."



 Posted: Tue Apr 4th, 2006 03:01 pm
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Ulysses
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Friends...The question " Is the Rebel Flag a racist symbol?"

The answer should not be debated. It is CERTAINLY a racist symbol and has been for more than   140 yrs!!  I have been to many events (especially at the the Southern Poverty Law Center programs) & Klan, SCV, UDC, League of the South-ers (let's call them LOS-ers) & Neo-Nazi members ofter turn out, all displaying the Reb Battle Flag along with obnoxious
and  and often threatening signage.  I have NEVER seen any SCV or UDC member turn on the other groups for using their REB Battle flag.( I think JAVALI wrote a GREAT editorial on this very thing a few months back at this very site!). 

As a former worker in the Civil Rights battle and a school administrator during  school integration here in THE SOUTH, I speak from experience , tainted with shame and embarrassment for the acts of SCV members and others who were and are determined to put the battle flag in the faces of not only minorities, but all of us.  This just didn't happen in the "old days"....but as recent as last October when  my name was placed on the "Wall of Tolerance" in Montgomery, Al. headquarters of the SPLC, there they all were...not condemning one another as to who or who did not have ownership of the Rebel Flag, but hanging out like a bunch of cousins at a family reunion!!  Of course, it made the ceremony even more a source of pride for me & my fellow inductees. Thanks!!

In Ocala, Fl. the REB Battle flag still was flown in front of the County Court house in this CENTURY!  Think for just a minute of being a black resident living there, descendant of  slaves, and having to do business in that court house, and having to look up at that Battle Flag!  As the head of the Concerned Citizens of Ocala, (a Black minister) explained it, .." If K-Mart flew this flag in front of their store, I sure wouldn't go there to buy my shoes."  Me neither.

It's obvious that those who confused the Battle Flag (never adopted by the Confederate Congress to represent the CSA) and the Stars & Bars (an officially adopted CSA symbol) should NOT be in this exchange (No Offense to you).  But an exchange here on the "BOARDS" is about learning and
comraderie...we are all brothers & sisters with a common interest in a period of American History....the Civil War. No, it would be stupid for us to fall for the line put out by Southerners that we are trying to "bury" their symbols, for that is just a lie. The Rebel Flag is part of our history and should never be hidden. But it needs to be displayed at
(1) reenactments (2) accurate living history events (including confederate memorial ceremonies) and (3) in museums. Who can tell me WHY it needs to be anywhere else?   Let's ALL be a little more tolerant...and stop blaming minorities for trying to erase the Battle Flag from history.  And let's re-spect the School dress Codes. Somehow this even crumbles into just another attempt to be divisive.

And above all, stop using that lame whining about "Old Glory" being a racist banner whenever this Reb Flag debate is tossed around.  Have you looked at an American Flag since 1865?  I just looked out my window at mine (which flies in my yard right near my replica Napolean Cannon) and geez, friends, it don't look like any flag that ever flew when slavery was legal...(oops... did I just say there was a time when you would EXPECT a US flag & slavery should have existed (legally) together...at the same time in history???)

OK...thanks for listening.  But before you start mumbling about some 'Damn Yankee' let me tell you I live in the South, my 7 kids were born and raised (and attended school) in the South and one of my ancestors, whom I honor & respect was the highest ranking Naval Officer to come out of the CSA

Admiral Franklin Buchanan.  So let's not turn our discussion board into a mean spirited debate over this issue. I am sure I won't change your thinking if you fly the Reb flag at your home, and you sure won't change mine!!! Until next time, I remain, your most obedient servant...Ulysses

 

 

Last edited on Tue Apr 4th, 2006 03:26 pm by javal1



 Posted: Tue Apr 4th, 2006 03:27 pm
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javal1
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Ulysses,

Just wanted you to know that I edited the spacing on your post to make it easier to read. I didn't change any content, just closed up the spacing. Hope you don't mind.



You have chosen to ignore indy19th. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Tue Apr 4th, 2006 04:13 pm
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javal1
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The editorial Ulysses mentioned was actually about 3 or 4 various issues with the Confederate flag being one of them. It was written well over a year ago, but for what it's worth this was (and remains) my take on the subject...

"CWi has been around for over eight years, and we have never publicly stated our position on what some mistakenly see as an important issue. There’s no doubt that we could fill our front page every day with news accounts of kids getting suspended while wearing confederate flag t-shirts, and similar stories. The problem is that those stories have nothing to do with the Civil War.

   The whole flag issue – as it has evolved – is a silly exercise, many times assisted by those who claim to be “the protectors” of the banner. As proof, I offer this challenge:

   Find a photograph of a KKK rally in which the Confederate flag is being carried. It’s not hard – there are thousands out there. Any Klan rally, march or demonstration from any decade will do. Now look for the groups in the crowd that are protesting the use of the flag by that hate group.

   What’s that you say? You can’t find anyone protesting the use of the flag as a symbol of hate? Surely you must be wrong, because I can google “Confederate Heritage Group” and come up with dozens of organizations that claim to protect that flag from “misuse”. Is it possible these groups didn’t exist in the 20th century – during the 60’s, the 70’s. the 80’s? Did they just spring up in the last few months? Perhaps they were busy on the days those particular rallies were held.

   But yet these very same groups today sit, wringing their hands and writhing with indignation, bemoaning the fact that the Confederate battle flag has become a symbol of racism. It has, but before you continue to berate others for it, you need to answer the simple question: Where the hell were you, oh self-proclaimed defender of the banner, when this hijacking was happening?

  There are two types of places the Confederate flag should be displayed. It’s the same two places where the 32- or 35-star United States flag deserves to be displayed – at historical events and sites, and in museums and other educational venues in the course of learning. They are historical artifacts. All of the other symbolism and rhetoric (on both sides) is a personal issue. So for those who advocate its use on lunch pails and book covers, and for those who feel it promotes heritage to wear it as a prom dress or a tee-shirt, I can only respectfully disagree and suspect that your use of the flag is not what our ancestors had in mind.

   And to the “hard-core” heritage groups I can only say this: Your first inclination will be to call us “anti-Confederate” – that is, after all, your modus operandi. But you got so caught up in making the story about YOU rather than your ancestors that you lost the rest of America. You lost us when you demanded that a Lincoln statue not be put in Richmond. You lost us when you said it was offensive to fly an American flag at the Hunley funerals. And you continue to lose us with your “South Will Rise Again” t-shirts. I’m sure the south will rise again – and in fact has already done so - as part of the United States of America. Most of the southern veterans of the war understood that. Too bad about the intellectual generational degradation.

     We belong to a larger heritage group. A group dedicated to remembrance and preservation rather than trying to “keep alive” a historical era. A group that respects the Confederate soldier and the Union soldier equally. A group that never resorts to personal aspersions directed towards the men who fought that war on either side. And we don’t justify slavery. Not when it was practiced by the North or the South. A group that understands that this was a tragic and bloody and costly war, not to be treated as if it were a sporting event where we “root, root, root” for the home team. And most of all we understand that our views and our opinions on events that led up to the war are irrelevant to the basic task of preserving history. We even have a name – we call ourselves History Lovers. Membership is free…. join anytime."



 Posted: Tue Apr 4th, 2006 04:48 pm
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MAubrecht
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Ulysses,

You've had some great insights. You want the freedom to state your case (which you absolutely have the right to do) BUT towards the end of your post you say something about "let's not turn our discussion board into a mean spirited debate over this issue" - yet you enter this conversation using an extremely large and bolded font which at least appears online as "aggressive". You state your argument with passion, and conviction BUT with an insightful tone... at least that's how it comes across "visually." Perhaps your firsthand experience as a "former worker in the Civil Rights battle" has left you with a bad taste in regards to the C.S.A. flag and ultimately Confederate history, but to make blanket statements that implies (at least in my take) that ALL recognition of C.S.A. symbolism continues (key word being "continues") to stand for the remembrance of a pro-slavery ideology in the 21st Century is wrong.

You say "Think for just a minute of being a black resident living there, descendant of slaves, and having to do business in that court house, and having to look up at that Battle Flag!" Personally, I do not care what they think - just as they do not care what I think when they drive down the street blasting their offensive and profanity filled rap music. What? That sounds so insensitive - but that is my point exactly - why should it bother them? Why should it bother me? Why do we feel the need to be so politically-correct and ultra-sensitive at the expense of each other rights? There are certainly more important issues that need to be addressed - not flags or music. In other words, we BOTH should have the freedom to express our history and heritage. We BOTH have the right to feel pride in our ancestors and cultures no matter what color we are.

Also, what about other races? According to your logic, isn't an American Flag flying on an Indian Reservation a slap in the face to their ancestors? OR... is it a historic symbol that (at one time) was linked to crimes against humanity. Certainly Old Glory did not stand "solely" for the desecration of Native Americans - just as the "Stars and Bars etc." did not stand "solely" for slavery. It stood for REBELLION against a ruling power. BTW: so did the Stars and Stripes. Once again - symbology means different things to different people.

True EQUALITY is the ability for ALL people to express themselves without fear of retribution from the other - whether that is a person flying a Confederate flag OR a person driving around listening to rap music. To prevent someone from recognizing their heritage, or expressing their culture (any person - of any color) is exactly what the Civil Rights movement fought to prevent.

I own a C.S.A. flag. I do NOT fly it, BUT I fully support one's right to do so. I can tell you that my black friends (no, I do not use the PC term of African-American as the "hyphenated-American" is a self-induced segregating term in my opinion - we are ALL just Americans)... anyway, they have no problem with the Confederate biographies and articles that I write (which openly praise great Christian soldiers in gray) and they are not offended by my support of the flag issue as they know that I am NOT one of those groups that you mention who have perverted the flag for their own racist ideology. In other words, if someone wants to pass judgment on an entire group of people - because of the negative actions of a few, ignorant groups - then they are just as guilty of "isms'" as the people they persecute. You, having experience in the Civil Rights movement, have to agree on that.

Freedom and equality are God-given blessings that we are lucky enough (being Americans) to enjoy. That means freedom and equality for everyone, including those that wish to recognize the Confederate flag.

Once again, I applaud your convictions and I respect your beliefs, but you said yourself, "Let's ALL be a little more tolerant..." Tolerance goes BOTH ways.



 Posted: Tue Apr 4th, 2006 06:25 pm
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Ulysses
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MAubrecht...Thanks for the Post.  Of course I think everyone is entitled to an opinion on this issue, but even you repeated my caution to not making this a "meanspirited

debate" and the operative word there was "MEANSPIRITED".  So obviously a man such as yourself, (tolerant, proud of your heritage,etc I gathered)  must know the flag (HISORICALLY A RACIST symbol) has a rather devisive intent, no matter WHO

waves it around at 'demonstrations'.  But so is the ploy of SCV seeking proclamations

for "April is Confederate History Month" (Suffolk Va. News, CWI website, March 2006).  Truth is, if the SCV & UDC would have asked for the month to be CIVIL WAR

HISTORY MONTH ( afterall, Union reenactors were taking part as well), they would not have boycotted the event (remember the kid down the block who always took

his ball & went home when he didn't get his way?)  Of course, Suffolk is just one town of many where the officials refused similar proclamations with the "honorable"

SCV threatening to kick them out of office ASAP. I touch on this, because the original lead POST that got this started fits into this catagory.  Check it out.

We may be more alike than you think. Heck, I own a Rebel Battle Flag myself! I have

even been a featured Confederate Memorial Day speaker and have received  stand-

ing ovations after addressing large (100+) SCV meetings!!   Here's a difference, though.  If blacks (Haitians, Mexicans, Guatemalens, etc.) annoyed me with loud boom box music playing I would repectfully ask them to stop. Try to get a REB to put the battleflag away the same way...yeh, right.  By the way, my state has a law that

auto-blaring music can't be heard beyond 25 ft.!  It's hard to picture that you have this drive-by occurrence so often down your street...do they park at your house or something just to annoy you?  Come on. now.... how long does "driving by" take??

Get involved in your local town council & go for the law.  That's how it's done. And you will impress the other neighbors on your block for doing it right. They MUST be

as annoyed as you.  But when you bring this up as a comparison to a REBEL BATTLE

Flag being offensive to some of our fellow Americans......my, my my...!

Brother Aubrecht, I was hoping you would have commented on my idea to protect

the Battle  Flag for History's sake.....but, perhaps another time.   Oh, and as far as

those Indians on the Reservations who fly the American Flag (compliance with US Flag Code) I just don't hear them complain. In fact, most of them are still very proud of the fact that another NATIVE American helped raise the same symbolic banner on

IwoJima in WWII.   Please tell me that the SCV isn't going to try to put the Battle

Flag on Indian Reservations.!!!?   Otherwise, what the heck of trying to insert it in

the dialogue?  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and opinions.  I do respect

your right to have them....ULYSSES 

 



 Posted: Tue Apr 4th, 2006 06:46 pm
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MAubrecht
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As I said General Grant... you are a class act and I thank you for your quick reply.

I don’t disagree with your points entirely, I just fear that people tend to judge a whole community in an unjust manner and automatically assume the worst of those who chose to fly that flag. Now I may be in a little bit of a different position as I live in Fredericksburg, VA (a Civil War tourist town) so my feeling on the flag flying around here may be a bit different from say, someone who wants to fly one in Buffalo NY. I am surrounded by 4 major battlefields.

In other words, IF the area (and the residents of that area) are based in this history and the ancestry and events of the conflict actually took place all around us - then the area (and the ground - and the people whose ancestors fought and died in our very backyards) may fall under a different category from some others you mention. Once again, I think we can both agree to disagree in some instances and agree in others - but the key is for everyone to have the right to express their culture and their heritage on both sides of the issue.

Also, I cannot comment on the specific "political issues" that you mention and all I can say is that my own experience with the SCV and UDC has been nothing less than outstanding. I will admit that all groups (no matter what they represent) have people with an agenda and I do not agree with many self-serving and biased agendas. So we do agree somewhat. (BTW: I'm a converted northerner and have no Confederate ancestors - or Union for that matter - and spent the first 20 years of my life in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.) Thanks.

Last edited on Tue Apr 4th, 2006 08:27 pm by MAubrecht



 Posted: Tue Apr 4th, 2006 08:58 pm
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Ulysses
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MAubrecht...Thanks for your reply. By golly, you gave me another thing we have in common....a love for the City of Fredericksburg.  I totally agree that I found nothing offensive  about any Confederate flag flying in or on the shops. Shop owners were knowlegeable  and friendly. I can assure you that when I left, I left behind a large

number of Union Bank Notes in the shopkeepers' care!!  But I look forward to a return trip there soon.  By the way, when the Visitor Center folks downtown recognized me as the GENERAL, they asked for a card or pamphlet and they immediately affixed it to their wall.!!  Thanks for the exchange of thoughts and hopefully maybe between the two of us we shared some new ideas with the members.  That's what it's all about. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Until

next time, I remain your obedient servant,  Ulysses



 Posted: Sat Apr 8th, 2006 02:29 am
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Ulysses,

The offical flag of the United States of America from 1776 to 1865 always flew over slavery. You are correct that the present day flag did not, however this does not mean it is not a symbol that slavery was once condoned by the government. The rebel flag is only a racist symbol to those who wish to find any excuse to cause trouble. There is no one in alive today that knows what it was like to be a slave. They may have read about it or been told about it, but they have no first hand knowledge or experience of slavery. Without an first hand knowlege you can not know what slavery was like. Was and is slavery wrong, yes. This does not mean that a historical symbol a 140 years old should be banned. Southeners have a right to their heritage just as any other people. I agree with MAubrecht, we are all Americans and using ______American, you fill in the blank with any ethnic background you like, is not what Americans should do. I find that quite racist. Why are the people who are against the Rebel Flag not against the many others who held slaves long before and for a longer time then the South? Why not be offended by their ansestors in Africa who sold their people to the slave traders?

Shadowrebel




 Posted: Sat Apr 8th, 2006 02:27 pm
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Shadowrebel...reading your post reminded me of the time asa kid when my slightly older brother got caught scooping some icing off a birthday cake my Mom had made for a party.As he always did in situations like that he pointed to me and whined, "Well, HE did it, too." It was usually a lie, of course. The Rebel battle flag is a racist symbol....accept it and stop trying to tiptoe around trying to make Blacks your enemy.  It was interesting how you linked the REB flag racism, to Africans taking captives and trading them to slave-traders! Geez, Shadowrebel, I can show some similarity in the world of Biology...starting with the Amoeba. Better yet, the Bible is full of such slave stories!!  But the African story seems to fit your example, even though the rest of us just don't get it.("Hey, Mom...HE did it too...")And you seem to be very sure that no one living today knows what slavery was like....but I wonder if you hang out with those SCV members who dress up in CW costumes on week-ends and think they know what THAT  was like in 1861! Or maybe some LOS-er was the guest speaker at your SCV gathering and TOLD you how it was. But I will disagree with you...just as we still have some Real Sons & Daughters  among us, there are, too, real sons & daughters of slaves. Ihave met a few and my wife (a writer)  years ago interviewed "Annie", aged 102, in a retirement home in Georgia.  Her family stayed on the Plantation after the Civil War. In Florida, several diaries written by Plantation owner's kids have been compiled by the University of Florida Press.  Hey, that's pretty damn close to knowing "how slavery was."  And finally, Shadowrebel, how close did you read my posts? Or for that matter, Javali's?  I see nothing about anyone wanting to BAN your precious historical  banner anywhere ...do you?  In fact, my proposal would keep the flag protected...which is more than racist southernors (and others) have done for the past 140 years!  Go back &check it out. By the way, does your SCV Camp display Old Glory at their meetings?  Do the members recite the Pledge?Calling it like it is does not make me your enemy. I am one of many trying to fix what's broke in this country, and the only people I see standing in the way are those whose Heritage(if you are willing to admit  it) is linked to the devisiveness in this Country....and we all know who the main players are in this "Heritage".  I can send you a list if you don't know. In fact, I can send you some photos...and guess whose Racist flag is seen in nearly every shot?  I would rather we join together, to bring our Country closer...for all AMERICANS. Who knows, we just might clean up the image of that darn racist flag that the REBELS worked so hard to tarnish.  And your being offended by _________ Americans...does that include SOUTHERN Americans as I see on bumper stickers & tee-shirts hanging in sutlers tents at reenactments? Hmmm.In fact, I will send you a list of all SCV Camps who have taken Old Glory down and/or refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance...because of the word " Indivisible".In the meantime, give some thought to how lenient & generous the North (Damn Yankees) were to those Southern soldiers while many around the government shouted "traitors". Still, not enough, they (Reb vets) continued the "war" against the North through the KKK.  Time to grow up and move on, don't you think? Thank you for the Post, Shadowrebel. I respect your opinions as I do your right to express them.  Best wishes..Ulysses

 

 



 Posted: Sun Apr 9th, 2006 01:53 am
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Shadowrebel
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Ulysses,

 You make some interesting asumpstions about me. Unfortunatly they are wrong. I am not trying to make blacks my enemy, I have many black friends. I do not know any SCV members nor do I belong to any such group and any information I have regarding the Civil War or slavery was gained by research. I do not do any re-enacting. As I stated in my post _____ American of any kind is racist. I stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance anytime I have the opportunity. You are not my ememy. If you check you will see I am from Pennsylvania, not exactly your typical Rebel state, so I have no Southern heritage.

 As for the rest of your reply: You said you want to limit the Rebel flag to three place;(1) reenactments (2) accurate living history events (including confederate memorial ceremonies) and (3) in museums. I guess that means not banning it to you, only partial banning it. Banning anything in any form is still banning it. Thank you for illustrating my point that slavery was around long before the South was.Why not be angry at any party who condoned slavery, not just the South? The only way to know what anything really was you have to live it. No one alive today was a slave during the Civil War, pretty damn close to knowing is not knowing. The diaries compiled by the University of Florida are quite limited compared to the Slave Narratives. I seem to remember from history class something about England calling some group traitors, um let me think, oh yes our founding fathers. They invoked the same reasons for revolt against England as the Southern state did. The Rebel flag is not what is wrong with this country, there are many things wrong, these issues however have no place for discussion here. Thank you for respecting my opinion, as I do your's. I happen to think the South had every right to succeed from the Union.

  I would appreciate it if you would not attack my character. I did not attack your's.

Regards

Shadowrebel



 Posted: Sun Apr 9th, 2006 01:16 pm
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javal1
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Ulysses - if your comment regarding "time to grow up" was directed towards the pro-flag group as a whole, that's fine. If it was directed towards Shadowrebel, that's personal and not allowed.

Shadowrebel - I'm afraid I don't understand much of your logic.

First you make a huge point that there are no living ex-slaves, so no one knows what it was like. What's your point? Is it that "maybe it wasn't as bad as everyone says?" Or is it that blacks have no right to speak out against it because it was only their grandmothers and great grandmothers who were in chains and not them? I would remind you that the pitiful state that the black community as a whole finds itself in today has a direct correlation to 400 years of bondage. There's no way it doesn't. Those against the flaunting of the Confederate flag atop state houses are not troublemakers, they are Americans whose ancestors were raped of their rights. They are probably also aware that that flag was in fact being flown to protest the Brown vs. Board of Education decision rather than some noble display of heritage.

You also, for some reason, seem to think it's important that slavery was legal prior to the Civil War - under the American flag. Technically true, and that will always be a blot on this country. But if you want to throw that out as some sort of justification, then you should tell the whole story. A few snippets anout the history of the Constitution:

"What should be done about the slave trade, the importing of new slaves into the United States? Ten states had already outlawed it. Many delegates heatedly denounced it. But the three states that allowed it--Georgia and the two Carolinas--threatened to leave the convention if the trade were banned. A special committee worked out another compromise: Congress would have the power to ban the slave trade, but not until 1800. The convention voted to extend the date to 1808."

Want to guess how many of the ten states that had already banned it were Southern states? So in fact we had slavery because the South demanded it, and threatened to take their toys and go home if they didn't get it.

But the Northern states didn't push too hard on slavery issues. Their main goal was to secure a new government. They feared antagonizing the South. Most of them saw slavery as a dying institution with no economic future. They had no way of knowing that in five years the cotton gin would be invented, which would make growing cotton on plantations very profitable. So instead they used slavery as a bargaining chip to win other concessions.

So it isn't a question of a "good" side" and a "bad" side, but of a side that demanded bondage of an entire people, and another side which didn't have the guts to fight against what they didn't believe in. One is bad, the other worse.

Finally your contention that the Confederate flag being flown in historical settings seems to be a "partial ban". Flying a historical flag in a historical setting is not a ban of any sort. It's the proper setting. The times it was flown elsewhere, it was used as a symbol of racism and bigotry by southerners. I would also add that ceasing to do something that is so offensive to 25-50% of the American population is not political correctness. It's common courtesy.



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