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 Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 12:34 am
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javal1
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"It's easier for our legislatures to give an apology than to address the more serious issues facing them. If it makes one feel better to apologize then so be it but let's do something about these more serious problems."

Doc -

I partly agree with you. What we have to understand is that many of the social problems that you want us to concentrate on now are partially caused by the government sponsored discrimination I spoke of earlier. So why can't we do both?

I understand that these ills weren't caused by everyone, and weren't participated in by everyone. But what's new about that? People with no kids pay school taxes. People opposed to the current war are forced to pay for it. Anytime the federal government passes a law ( or in this case a proclamation) it doesn't apply to everyone. It's done for the good of the social fabric, or in this case the public psyche. Sometimes we should just do something as a nation for the simple reason that it's the right thing to do.



 Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 12:50 am
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Doc C
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Doc J

No argument with your statements. Let's apologize for everything. No race has a corner on the apologies be it white, black, asian, hispanic, etc. We're all quilty as members of the human race. It's easy to say sorry for our faults rather than be proactive and attempt to not let injustices occur to our fellow man.

Doc C



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 Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 09:00 pm
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javal1
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Indy -

If you need to use current events in order to make a point that contributes to the current thread, by all means do so.

If you need to use current events to spout political ideology, there's a thread for that. Take it there.



 Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 11:30 pm
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JoanieReb
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…my ancestors on my mother's side did have slaves but on my father's side I have ancestors that march off to war from Michigan when they heard the call. 


A bit off topic, but I just wanted to point out that, for the most part, Midwesterners were about as prejudiced as Southerners.  The reaction of a large number of veteran Michigan soldiers to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was to lay down their arms in anger and go home, saying they would fight to preserve The Union, but not to free the slaves.

 

Fascinating thread, such a diversity of opinions; I'm learning, here.

 

 



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:17 am
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Doc C
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Even the great emancipator Lincoln during a meeting with prominent black leaders of the period, i.e. Douglass, etc. spoke bluntly, to papaphrase him - preservation of the union was paramount, not slavery. If the union could be preserved with slavey intact, so be it. I'm sure some one will come up with his exact words but the jest of it was slavery was secondary to Lincoln until he could use it as his trump card in 1863 but only as a method to defeat the south.

Doc C



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:18 am
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Doc C
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Even the great emancipator Lincoln during a meeting with prominent black leaders of the period, i.e. Douglass, etc. spoke bluntly, to papaphrase him - preservation of the union was paramount, not slavery. If the union could be preserved with slavey intact, so be it. I'm sure some one will come up with his exact words but the jest of it was slavery was secondary to Lincoln until he could use it as his trump card in 1863 but only as a method to defeat the south.

Doc C



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:26 am
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JoanieReb
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I've been looking for another of Lincoln's quotes to Douglass, in which Lincoln said that while he thought slavery to be an abomination, he did not think the two races should live together.  Something to the effect that the prescence of either race would be detrimental to the other.  Lincoln favored colonization of the freed people.  Mind-boggling - what if he had lived and carried out such an agenda? 

Woops, I think if anyone wants to respond to that, it had better be as the start of a new thread.

Last edited on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:32 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:35 am
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susansweet
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Joani , just to finish the Michigan trail , My great grandfather didn't lay his rifle down then as he was in Libby prison and after that was mustered out due to illness. 

We just read Lincoln at Cooper Union.  Lincoln tells a tale about children and a snake in the bed.  I don't have the book right in front of me and it is a long story.  But basically he is using it to say at the time , the snake in bed with the children is okay but he will not put the snake in bed that his children are already in.  He was using it to argue a point of leave slavery alone in the states where it exist but  not introduce it where it doesn't already exist.    I think I have mangled the quote.  But get the book and read it It was a good one, the book I mean and the story. 

 



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:36 am
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Doc C
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Lincoln initially was contemplating colonization early during his presidency but b/o abolishionist and black leaders gave the idea up. What about the Republicans giving up their reconstruction plans in the 1870's for the sake of politics.

Doc C



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:49 am
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JoanieReb
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I think reconstruction is the darkest, ugliest, most misunderstood and most twisted era in US history. 

About a year ago, I decided I had to come to a better understanding of it.  And went down to the local university, which graciously allows me to check out an unlimited number of books for six months at a time.  I realized I was in for it when one of the first books I looked at was A History OF the History of reconstruction.  I brought home 12 books, and dutifully fought my way through them - terribly confusing and depressing stuff, resulting in many sleepless nights for me.  They changed the way I think about a number of issues.

If anyone else is interested, it might be cool to start a reconstruction thread.

 

Last edited on Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:53 am by JoanieReb



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 12:56 am
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javal1
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Either a reconstruction thread or a thread on Union motivations for war would be cool. But we're starting to seriously deviate from the apology topic.



 Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 02:05 am
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Doc C
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Just finished rereading an interview on booknotes in the 90's with Shelby Foote. As I've say before, fascinating man and interview. He makes the observation that the jewish community continues to remember the holocast while the black community tends to want to forget slavery. I know this is a generalization but it does seem to exist. Any comments for this difference.

Doc C



 Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2007 10:49 pm
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Homeschool_Teen_02
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Here's a little Bible Verse.

If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14



 Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 02:19 pm
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trench nerd
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One cannot look at history through the eyes of the present and expect to fully understand the causes and motives held in the past.
We today cannot conceive how our forefathers, black and white could hold each other in bondage. That being said today it has become politically correct to apologize and tiptoe around sensitive subjects particularly when they concern race, religion or gender, instead of addressing the issues head on.
Sherman in his day was a hero in the North and his tactics were acceptable by many. Today he would be tried and convicted as a war criminal. Should the Federal Government apologize to those in the South deprived of their property through the actions of Sherman against the civilian population? Should the Southern landowners who had their property confiscated by the Federal authorities be compensated today?
The very idea of an apology by governmental entities such as the State of Virginia, is divisive. Once again we are being separated by singling out one race.
If we look at history in the past as well as what is happening today we will find man has always sought to join others of his "kind" and separate or dominate other groups. We do it based on race, religion, even political affiliations. Just look at the rancor between Republicans and Democrats.
I have followed this thread in it's entirety, many good points have been made on both sides, but by it's nature this very thread has managed to divide. This is not constructive at all.
What will be accomplished by apologies today? Will anyone really feel better? Will anyone really forgive for past ills? I really don't think so. But it sure makes the politicians feel good. Maybe that is what all this is about. Political correctness and political feel good.



 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 08:18 pm
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JoanieReb
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Noticed this article:

http://www.savannahnow.com/node/280232

under the heading

  • City That Bought Slave Just Before Sherman's Arrival Is Asked to Make Apology
  • in today's CWi "more news" section.

    I thought it was pretty interesting, both the factoids and the commentaries.

    These included:

    "Yeah, why not (issue an apology)?" said Alderman Clifton Jones, who is black. "It's just some words."

    When asked if the apology would make any difference, he said: "Not at this point."

    and:

    Toure said an apology would be good but it's not intended to make anyone feel bad.

    "What starts to happen (after an apology) is there is an honest dialogue and now start to address some of the ills."

    and:

    But don't expect an apology soon from Mayor Otis Johnson. He said he wouldn't have a position on the issue until the entire Savannah City Council can discuss it.

    "I'm busy fighting poverty, I'm fighting crime, I'm trying to renew neighborhoods, I'm looking at economic development and job creation," Johnson said. "Everybody has their burden to bear and right now this is somebody else's burden. I'm not spending any of my time on it because it's more symbolic than anything else and I have to deal with the substantive issues of making the city better for everybody."



     Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 06:30 pm
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    Mannie1952
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    I'd prefer to see some tangible attempt at admitting and healing the ingrained rascism that characterizes many nations, including ours.

    Mannie



     Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 08:08 pm
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    ole
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    Mannie. Welcome. However, I must disagree.

    It is beyond human power to change ingrained racism. It would take the creator to erase everything and start over without the intuition to regard difference as inferior if not dangerous. Fortunately, we were also given the facility to reason and to resist the initial reaction.

    Thanks for joining us. I'm sure I can speak for everyone else in saying that.

    ole



     Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 03:08 am
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    JoanieReb
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    I would like to echo the welcome, Mannie, and thank you for joining in - and especially with a strong voice!

    Sincerely,

    JoanieReb



     Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 03:12 pm
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    David White
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    I had a socialogist explain even further sort of what Ole is saying in that he theorized that prejudice is a survival instinct in man, i.e. the cavemen took note of who was different and perceived them as a threat.  The higher thinking cavemen who overcame their instinct and approached the other cavemen, were often killed, as a percieved threat, when all they wanted to do was engage in some sort of social interaction, recognizing they had the same wants and needs as him.  The theory gets some creedence in how Native Americans reacted to the coming of Europeans to the Western Hemisphere, where the reaction tended to vary between wary curiosity to outright hostility.



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