| ||||
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > The Lounge > Non-Civil War Books, Movies, Music, etc. > "Sicko" Thought Provoking |
| ||||
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > The Lounge > Non-Civil War Books, Movies, Music, etc. > "Sicko" Thought Provoking |
| Moderated by: javal1 |
|
||||||||||||||
| "Sicko" Thought Provoking | Rate Topic |
| Author | Post |
|---|
| Posted: Sun Jul 1st, 2007 01:10 am |
|
1st Post |
|
CleburneFan Member 
|
Whether you hate Michael Moore or love Michael Moore, his new movie "Sicko" might really make you stop and think about a topic that will eventually impact each of us and that is health care in the United States. Hubby and I went to the first showing yesterday at 11:00AM, Friday. To our surprise the theater was more than half full which is very unusual for a documentary, especially at that time of day. Another surprise was that all the patrons were retirees, I'd judge from the looks. No teens on high school vacation there. Another surprise soon came when the movie rapidly changes from the plight of uninsured Americans to the plight of America's insured! Their problem is that health insurance companies, in business to make a profit, do all they can to deny their clients payment for any number of reasons and pay bonuses to the doctors who work for them who deny payment to the most clients. The denials come even if a patient may die because of refused care or even if the denila makes no sense. One example was a woman who was knocked unconscious in a car wreck and was sent to the ER in an ambulance. Her insurance company denied payment for the ambulance because she was not pre-approved for the trip. But, remember, she was unconscious. Moore shows several stories like that. Some are so sad. I hate crying in movies, but these stories were tear jerkers. Then Moore visits Canada, England, France and even Cuba. I understand this last trip was illegal and Moore is in hot water because of it. He demonstrates how these countries have universal free health care and medications can be purchased for a pittance. He attempts to show that even though the governments of these countries provide such health care, their citizens are not drowning in the resultant taxes. Hubby and I discussed this ourselves after the movie because a common argument against universal health care in the US is that taxes will rise precipitously. But I got to figuring how much Hubby and I pay for insurance and drug co-pays each year and that constuitutes a "tax" of a sort. What I mean is if the government paid all our health care expenses and medications, would our increased taxes be any higher than what we are paying right now out of our own pockets? As can be imagined, immediately the talk shows have representatives from the insurance companies and representatives from the medical profession who are fighting back at every point made in "Sicko" and trying their level best to negate the impact of the movie...if there is any impact. But this is to be expected because if the movie does create a groundswell of efforts to change our health care system, the insurance companies will have no need to exist. Many doctors may not earn as much as they do now. Quite a few might earn even more! Dr. Sanjay Gupta, the medical correspondent on CNN showed how things aren't as good in Canada as Moore made out, namely long waits to see doctors. A representative of the health insurance industry appeared on Anderson Cooper giving her spin in a calm voice. Her thesis seemed to be that a few of Moore's cases were several years old and things are better now. Certainly the movie will be a magnet for criticism from Moore's detractors and from the health care industry, but I still believe it is worth seeing if for no other reason than to see some of the real issues Moore does raise even if you don't endorse Moore's solutions or any type of socialized medicine. One of the Cuban doctors said that Cuba is a poor country but they take care of the health of all of their people, but she had to wonder why the richest country in the world cannot do the same? The French, too, wonder why America can't do anywhere nearly as much as the French do for their citizens even including sending government nannies to mothers of new borns to do laundry and prepare simple meals for free. The movie will make you think and make you wonder. You do not have to accept all of Moore's ideas unexamined, but you will leave asking questions. It was a very moving depiction of the situation. Hubby said he thinks it was a much better movie than "Farenheit 911."
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 02:58 pm |
|
2nd Post |
|
David White Member 
|
Read CNN's review of this spin job, even they recognize it for what it is, not necessarily lies, just not the full truth, typical of Moore's approach. I'd like to ask him when his unhealthy life style puts him in need of medical care is he going to run to Cuba or stay in the good old US of A? As crazy as the insurance company not covering the ambulance is, does anyone think that is the norm and not an anomaly of some sort, stupid things happen no matter how good of bad the system is? Britain and Canada's health care system are "leeches" on the American system where the capitalist system still makes it profitable and worthwhile to pursue new drugs and technology. If we adopt their socialist healthcare system, who will develop the new technologies and drugs for the social medicine nations to rip off and make them generic with government subsidies?
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2007 03:42 pm |
|
3rd Post |
|
ole Member 
|
I would dearly love to hear a panel discussion among truly knowledgeable people without agendas -- no medical industry, no wild-eyed socialists, no radical rightists. No resolution required -- just something to bring out the pros and cons for voters to consider. What frightens me most about national health care is that it would be government run. I've enough experience with, and knowledge of, government running such programs to believe that government can't be trusted to run anything efficiently or creatively. As David pointed out, without the greed of private industry, we wouldn't have the incentive to make the kind of medical breakthroughs that are being made. We'd immediately sink into a tangle of red-tape and waiting lists, if not lines. Must relate what I heard a radio commentator mention. Seems that the English "system" claimed efficiency in that 50 percent of the cases were treated in a "timely manner." The commentator looked into what the system claimed was a timely manner. Ready? Eighteen weeks was considered timely! And just half were treated within that time!! Perhaps we're spoiled? Ole
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 12:51 am |
|
4th Post |
|
javal1 Grumpy Geezer 
|
"I would dearly love to hear a panel discussion among truly knowledgeable people without agendas -- no medical industry, no wild-eyed socialists, no radical rightists. No resolution required -- just something to bring out the pros and cons for voters to consider." 100% correct ole. Don't know that it's possible in the partisan atmosphere, but it's certainly what's needed. Haven't seen Sicko, but I know what will happen. The message will be ignored while the messenger is either villified or worshipped. Through it all, the problem of the subject itself will be rarely debated save for political rhetoric.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 01:41 am |
|
5th Post |
|
ole Member
|
Through it all, the problem of the subject itself will be rarely debated save for political rhetoric. I'd be delighted with an agreement on the "problem of the subject." I have yet to hear it defined. Ole
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 12:36 am |
|
6th Post |
|
CleburneFan Member
|
ole wrote: Must relate what I heard a radio commentator mention. Seems that the English "system" claimed efficiency in that 50 percent of the cases were treated in a "timely manner." The commentator looked into what the system claimed was a timely manner. Ready? Eighteen weeks was considered timely! And just half were treated within that time!! Perhaps we're spoiled? Here in South Florida where this is a large percentage of elderly population, doctor's offices are crowded with patients in our non-government run system. I care for my elderly mother and visit doctors and testing clinics and the emergency room with her on nearly a weekly basis. (Not the ER, thank God, but the other places.) Today I took her to get the results of some sonogram tests and the doctor's waiting room was standing room only. I finally left my Mom inside and I went out in the 90 degree heat to wait. Timely care is not eighteen weeks for most care, but it is approaching and exceding that for certain specialists. Dermatologists, for example, because there is so much skin cancer here, can take six months to get an appointment. If you are a new patient, you may not even be that lucky, because popular dermatologists are not accepting new patients. Rheumatologists can take three or four months for new patients to see. When I tore my achilles tendon, the DPM that was recommended couldn't see me for two weeks. Then he wanted me to have an MRI, but the place he sent me to couldn't do it for over a week! Even family practitioners can require a long wait period if you are new and they accept your particular insurance. When my Mom gets really sick and I need to take her to the ER, the wait has been as long as six hours, but the usual wait is two or more hours. Then she gets into the "inner sanctum" and that can take hours of testing and what not---mostly waiting. Then they say they will admit her to the hospital, but it is often hours of waiting for a room because the hopsital is crowded. And my Mom has excellent insurance. I should be so lucky. If a family doctor sends you out for tests, the tests can take days or more to schedule. When I hear that nationalized health programs have long waits, I don't see a lot that is worse than here or very much worse than here when it comes to waits for care. Yes, I am absolutely certain nationalized free health care is rife with problems, but our own system is too. Our own system has failings, especially for the uninsured or poorly insured. But even the well insured in this country are facing health care hurdles, maybe not in areas with a younger population, but that will be changing as America "grays." We are in the forefront down here in FLorida. Michael Moore doesn't deal with this topic in his movie "Sicko."
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 05:42 pm |
|
7th Post |
|
David White Member
|
What a loose cannon Moore is, takes a while to watch it all but very illuminating as to the man and what his agenda is. I imagine he thinks anyone to the right of Kucinich is a Nazi. He's just a raving lunatic. Oh and Wolf Blitzer has to be the biggest wimp alive to take that crap from him. Only Lou Dobbs at the end and Dr. Gupta at the beginning bring any reason to the whole affair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpKoN40K7mA
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 06:04 pm |
|
8th Post |
|
javal1 Grumpy Geezer
|
Haven't seen SICKO, so I won't comment on the movie. But I watched Moore's interview live yesterday. As I've said in the past, I'm no great fan of Moore's, but he serves a purpose. As for the Blitzer interview, it's about damn time someone said it. If CNN and the others had actually asked the tough questions BEFORE we invaded Iraq, who knows what may have happened. That's supposed to be their job. Instead, they all got in line to cheer, cheer cheer for the hometeam. Sickening. I remember the same type of "moral outrage" from the right that I'm hearing now when Farenheit 9/11 came out (not you David, I mean in the rags and TV, etc.). I know one thing... if you make a list of everything Moore said in 9/11 that turned out to be true and compared it to a list of truths to come out of that person in the White House, it would open a lot of people's eyes. Of course, that would only be if they wanted to open their eyes.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 06:45 pm |
|
9th Post |
|
David White Member
|
Javal: I don't remember a bunch of rah rah coming out of the news media before the war in '03. Plus, it's not necessarily the media's job to ask the hard questions (except who Anna Nicole's Baby Daddy is). The hard questions should have come from the Congress. The media may ask them too but don't blame Wolf if they aren't "hard" enough. Blame George, Hillary and any one of the politicians that voted for the war in a bi-partisan manner. They should ask the "hard questions" before embarking on the war, not the media. Will you blame the Philadelphia Inquirer the next time the Eagle's management makes a poor player decision because they did not question the organization enough? Can't believe I'm defending swine and saying their poop doesn't smell, but so be it. As to Moore and his purpose, it must be as a tool. But using a sledgehammer to make stained glass windows isn't a very useful tool. The man obviously learned the propoganda devices of the Nazis and the Big Lie and continues to use it. Just one small example, where's the Unocol gas pipeline across Afghanistan he said was in the works in Farehheit 911? The CNN interview was supposed to have been about Sicko and healthcare yet Moore turned it into a self-centered diatribe about the war (with Michael Moore self-promotion the clearest winner since Secretariat). The fact that the Democrats have to pander to Moore and his ilk is why, even with the perceived disaster of Bush's presidency, I'm not very worried about the Democrats winning the WH in ‘08. I just wish somebody would run a candidate I could vote for versus vote against the rest by picking the lesser of evils.
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 03:03 pm |
|
10th Post |
|
David White Member
|
Well here is the followup to the Moore interview a debate between him and Gupta on Larry King where IMO Gupta schools and exposes him for his modus operendi of cherry picking "facts" and reports to make America look the worst possible and the rest of the world better (doesn't matter what the subject of his film). A little long again but worth the viewing: http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/10/gupta.sicko/index.html#cnnSTCVideo After it plays I recommend you watch the second part of his Wolf Blitzer interview that comes up after it. Moore is actually under control and speaking coherently in that one. He rightly blames politicians on both sides of the aisle for the state of the nation. But he still thinks more government is the answer. I think more government is even more intolerable than the politicians by an eyelash. I have to agree with him if the Democrats were elected to do something about the war, they are not getting it done. It's the worst of both worlds for this Congress, they are encouraging the enemy to sustain their efforts while leaving our troops in harm's way, it's most disgusting. They need to get off the dime and either jump on the dock or in the boat, not straddle the two.
|
|||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
| Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 04:06 pm |
|
11th Post |
|
ole Member
|
Amen, David. When did the common good become displaced by my reelection? Ole
|
||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||
| Current time is 04:33 am | |
| Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > The Lounge > Non-Civil War Books, Movies, Music, etc. > "Sicko" Thought Provoking | Top |
