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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > The Lounge > Non-Civil War Books, Movies, Music, etc. > September Dawn: A Controversial Massacre in 1857 |
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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > The Lounge > Non-Civil War Books, Movies, Music, etc. > September Dawn: A Controversial Massacre in 1857 |
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| September Dawn: A Controversial Massacre in 1857 | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24th, 2007 02:22 am |
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1st Post |
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CleburneFan Member 
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Tomorrow (August 24, 2007) "September Dawn" debuts. It is already proving to be controversial because it deals with a massacre that took place at Mountain Meadows on Sept 11, 1857 and involves the ruthless murders of 126 men, women and children, emigrants who were headed west in a wagon train convoy. Someone in the Mormon community ordered the massacre of these people as they crossed near Mormon territory. The controversy, other than the heartless nature of the crime, is over who actually ordered the massacre. From what I have read, the movie appears to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Brigham Young, while the Mormon Church staunchly defends Young, saying he did not have a part in ordering this tragic slaughter. The church has placed this movie on their "Do Not Watch" list. I love movies about actual events, but I'm not sure I have the heart to go see this one. The director Christopher Cain says he made the film to show what extremes religious extremists will go to and that today's religious extremism is not new in U.S. history. Jon Voight and Terrence Stamp are among the stars. If anybody here does go see "September Dawn", I would love to know your opinion of the movie.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Fuller E Pluribus Unum 
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I am LDS and have been my whole life. I honestly have yet to hear of a ban on the movie from my leaders. I'm making a huge assumption here but my opinion is that Hollywood will most likely put out a biased view on the big screen and that gives us members a bad taste in our mouth. I just so happen to have read an article yesterday in a magazine published by my church concerning the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It is from the LDS point of view. In it, it mentions a book that will soon be out, "Massacre at Mountain Meadows" Here's a link to that article I mentioned, Sept 2007 Issue of the "Ensign" (On the left hand side you will see the table of contents. Sorry the typing is small...) http://www.lds.org/churchmagazines/EN_2007_09_00___00609_000_000.pdf Fuller
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24th, 2007 11:35 pm |
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3rd Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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I heard about the ban on one of the 24-hour news channels, but can't remember which one. I was so surprised because I had no idea the LDS church had lists of banned movies. But the statement on the news show may have been in error. You know how "reliable" TV news can be. They did mention that the church objects to the portrayal of Brigham Young in the movie. Anyway, Hubby and I went to see the movie today and guess what! The newspaper was wrong about the time, so we ended up seeing "Death at a Funeral" instead. It turned out to be the funniest movie I have seen in years and I laughed myself silly. I thought I'd have a stroke from laughing so hard. Maybe we'll save "September Dawn" for when Netflix has it on DVD. I'm really not a big fan of massacre scenes, so we can fast forward through that part.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 01:59 am |
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ole Member 
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I'd understood that Mountain Meadows was laid at the feet of Danites--a radical group of LDS. Radicals. Where have I heard that before? ole
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 12:37 am |
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5th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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Hubby and I saw "September Dawn" today. There were five people there to see it in a theater with three hundred seats, but we all managed to be in the same couple of rows. I love movies about history, but I HATE movies about historical events that superimpose a sappy love story, even a tragic love story such as this one on top of the event. I was on alert at the very start because the movie opened with the words on the screen "Inspired By Actual Events". That right there sets up notice that not all events will be exactly as they happened. To set up the story, let me explain that a group of "Merikat" emigrants were in a wagon train which included cattle and fine Kentucky race horses. The wagon train was headed to California, but the group needed to rest from the strenuous trip and allow the cattle and horses to graze in what happened to be in Utah territory controlled by Mormons. Their leader at this area was a hard bitten bishop (Jon Voight.) Some of his group do not want to allow the Merikats to pause for any time, but the bishop grants them two weeks. This is how a love affair develops between one of the Mormons and the preacer's daughter in the Merikats' group. Whether this part of the film ever really happended one can only guess because the movie does not give any hint as to what is embroidered and what is known to be fact. President James Buchanan, fed up with Mormon occupation of Utah which he sees to be an act of rebellion, sends troops to root them out. The bishop and Brigham Young decide to kick back--hard. They believe the Merikats are part of Buchanan's plan, so they decide that the Lord has told them to kill the sinners and by doing so they will actaully be allowing these "gentiles" as they call the wagon train folk, to go to heaven and be freed of their sins. The Bishop sends John E. Lee, an adopted son of Brigham Young (Young is played by Terrence Stamp), to go to the neighboring Paiute Indians and promise them the spoils if they will shoot up the Merikats. They agree, attack the wagon train, but many die when the Merikats shoot back. They feel betrayed because Lee has promised them the Lord will protect them from death. Undaunted the Bishop calls upon his men to continue the massacre, saying it is really a good thing to do because it will free the sinners to go to heaven. Those who object to the plan are threatened for questioning the word of God who ordered the slaugther. THe Bishop's men, some dressed as Indians, carry out the heinous act, killing every man, woman and child except for 16 infants, they then raised. Many of the victims were not shot to death. Numerous victims had their throats cut, including young children. Needless to say, this part of the movie, filmed in slow motion was very difficult to watch. In fact, the whole movie was hard to watch because we know what is coming. At the movie's end, a statement is shown that the Mormons do not believe Brigham Young had any knowledge before hand of this plan, did not order it and knew anything about it until well after the fact. The viewer is left to figure out whether the movie shows Young did in fact know and was protected in an artful cover up or if he really was incapable of committing such a criminal act. This isn't a movie I want to see again, primarily because of the love story which I find hard to imagine. Still, if there isn't some humanizing element to the story, it will seem too much like a History Channel documentary. In fact, I think this event would be a good History Channel documentary and that would be preferable. As we left the theater one of the people there got up and loudly announced that this movie would "ruin Mitt Romney". I strongly disagree. There won't be enough people who see the movie to make a bit of difference in Romney's campaign.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 03:00 pm |
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6th Post |
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David White Member 
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There was a History Channel Documentary using the reenacting genre style and it was pretty good. Thanks for the review, now I think I'll even pass it as a rental.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 10:11 pm |
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7th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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Thanks, Mr White. I'm glad to know there was a History Channel documentary on this matter. If it has been shown once, it will be shown again. I would love to see it.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 05:31 am |
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8th Post |
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susansweet Member 
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Interesting the movie says the wagoln train was from Kentucky? The Fancher-Baker wagon train was from Arkansas , and members of the party were thought to be men who had had interactions with the Mormons back home. I have two books on the Subject , Still to read . Mountain Meadow Massacre by Juanita Brooks which is considered the classic on the subject and a new one called American Massacre by Sally Denton. Interesting is the men sent out to bury the bones came from Fort Tejon in California lead by James Carleton . The same Carleton who was invovled with the Long Walk of the Navajo during the Civil War. I drove by Fort Tejon today on my way home from Oregon. It sits at the top of the Grape Vine Canyon on interstate 5 . Very interesting place to visit. I have also been to the site of the Massacre. A friend that lived in Cedar City Utah was interested in the site and I was there to see Shakespeare in Cedar City so we went out to the site. The site is maintained by the LDS Church in St. George. We met a little old lady and her husband who come up and clean the monument each day . I think I will finally read the books and skip the movie. Susan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 06:57 pm |
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9th Post |
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traygreen Member 
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Have never been to the site, but am hoping to sometime in the next year. Having trouble finding the full documentary on the history channel site but there is a trailer... http://www.history.com/media.do?id=september_dawn_carnage_at_mountain_meadows_broadband&action=clip
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 11:28 pm |
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10th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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Susan, just to clear up some matters. The Merikats' horses were from Kentucky, not the Merikat's themselves. The head of the group told the Mormon Bishop that he planned to take his beautiful horses to Cailfornia to conduct horse races because doing so would keep the miners out there from going to saloons, drinking and womanizing. The Bishop did not take kindly to the idea because, as he told his sons, gambling was an abomination---as was the Merikat woman who was dressed in riding pants and carried a gun! The Bishop did inquire of the Merikat leader where they were from and he said they were from Arkansas but had some in the group from Missouri also. This upset the Bishop who had bitter memories of the bad treatment Mormaons had received in Missouri. He immediately became suspicious that the Merikats' true ambition was to run the Mormons out of Utah as well. During the movie there are several flashbacks to the dangerous situation Mormons faced in Missouri, including the assassination of Joseph Smith. The Bishop determines that his flock will not be run out of Utah. He learns that President James Buchanan is sending troops to run out the Mormons and is convinced the Merikats are in cahoots with Buchanan. This seems to have precitpitated the visions that the Bishop begins to have in which God tells him the Merikats must all die to save their souls from their sins (and also save the Mormons from another disastrous scene of being expelled under threat of violence.) If you can get past the sappy love story in the movie, you might actually find the story interesting. Hubby and I both felt it had some striking parallels to Jim Jones's modern day massacre of his followers in Guiana and what eventually happened in Texas with the Texas Branch Davidians. All three events were the result of charismatic, but autocratic leaders who expected followers to unquestioningly "do or die". This movie portrays that some who participated in the killings were extremely conflicted about what they were doing and were remorseful about it.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 11:51 pm |
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11th Post |
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susansweet Member
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Fran explain this one term you have used Mericat I cannot find it listed in either book I have on the massacre.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 01:13 am |
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12th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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In "September Dawn" the term Merikats was used to refer to the wagon train group. I must confess I had never heard it before myself. So when I was writing up the review, I looked it up on Google. There is scant reference to it, but there are two links. Surprisingly enough, I was astonished to see my own use of the word in my review as the top reference on Google now! I didn't even know how to spell the word for sure. I thought the Bishop may have been saying "Americats." If you do a Google search for <Merikats> you will see my review and two other references. You will also be asked if you don't mean "merecats", the cute little animals featured on a Discovery Channel series. I don't really know if the Merikats were an ethnic group, a religious group or a political group or why they had a special name. Perhaps the reason so little is known about them is that they were almost all killed.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 01:24 am |
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13th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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Susan, I did find out that "Merikats" was the Indian term for Americans other than Mormons. Evidently they trusted the Mormons, but did not trust other Americans. They trusted the Mormons because it was Brigham Young's policy that it was better to feed Indians than to fight them. The word was used in the movie and it may have been used when the Mormons were talking to the Indians in an effort to persaude the Indians to attack he interlopers. So given this information, the folks in the wagon train apparently did not call themselves Merikats. The Mormons and especially the Indians called them that.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 02:58 am |
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14th Post |
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susansweet Member
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Thanks so much for clearing up the word. I was trying to look it up in the two books I have and couldn't find it. I figure it was the wagon train people but wondered why they were called that. Ain't it grand to be famous on goggle!!!!! Susan Think I will go back to my reading on Kit Carson and the Indians. Which is the title of a really interesting book I am reading by Tom Dunlay which by the way has blurbs on the back from Publisher's Weekly , Western Historical Quarterly and Booklist .
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 04:18 pm |
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15th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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susansweet wrote:
No, I don't think it is. It gave me a scare. I was laboring under the delusion that we had a small community here and what happens in CWi stays in CWi--so to speak. I don't really relish the idea of everything we say going out to a far broader community, even published in other areas. It has given me serious pause and I do mean very serious pause. I may go back to my stacks of Civil War books and cozy Lazy-Boy chair.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 2nd, 2007 02:42 am |
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16th Post |
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susansweet Member
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Oh dear , don't do that you would be greatly missed . You have such good insight into what you have read. I want a lazy boy chair. drat. I need to get one . Susan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 2nd, 2007 11:55 pm |
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17th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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Thanks so much for the encouragement! I was honestly so NOT going to post anymore, but because of your kind remarks, I may reconsider. Anyway, as fair warning, Lazy Boy recliners or Barca Loungers or Lane or whatever brand can become addictive. They are so comfortable, that once happily ensconced there with a fascinating book, one just forgets about time, chores and responsibilities. They are like quicksand, pulling you in and not allowing you to leave. That is what happens when good books and recliners work in cahoots conspiring to keep you cozy and altogether contented. By the way, today CBS Sunday Morning had a feature on Kit Carson! The author of "Blood and Thunder" was interviewed. He was much younger looking than I would have imagined. His book is a biography of Kit Carson. I don't know how many endorsements it has or how many pages of notes and how much research was primary. The feature also showed interviews with descendants of Navajo Indians who were victims of Kit Carson's activities. The author of the book explained that he thought the diminutive and illiterate Carson was a man of his times and while some of his behavior can be seen as reprehensible by today's standards, in those days he was seen by many as a hero.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 12:05 am |
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18th Post |
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Texas Defender Member 
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You cannot expect to fully understand a 19th century mind when you are using a 21st century brain. You cannot use 21st century standards to judge 19th century situations.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 12:05 am |
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19th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer 
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Cleburne - I never thought you were serious about not posting again! Google bots catch everything, at any site, at all times. Well, almost everything. What they don't do is send spiders through data-bases. Once whatever's in the database is actually posted on a browser, it's going to be picked up. Some things will never be seen - for example PM's. When you post a PM, it goes into a database. It never appears on the browser as a post. Therefore, Google can't read PM's. Stick around, it's no different anywhere else. You'd be missed....
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| Posted: Mon Sep 3rd, 2007 01:52 am |
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20th Post |
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CleburneFan Member
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Javal, looks as if I'm getting an education about the web. Maybe I'd better be a lot more careful what opinions I am expressiing. I'd better stay out of controversy. Whoa! That's no fun!  Texas Defender. You are so right. In fact, I learned living overseas that you also can't judge another country with an American mind. Nor can they judge Americans with their mind. I made so many mistakes, bad mistakes, because I didn't and couldn't understand some things about other cultures. Just as you say, we in the 21ST century can't really go back and say if what Carson did was despicable by our evolved standards.
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