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| Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 02:47 pm |
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21st Post |
39th Miss. Walker
Member
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I would have no problem with relic hunters if they had to be licensed, carry written permission from the property owner with them and fill out a detailed report with the State Archaeologist.
I have seen way too many times irresponsible relic hunters who have dug whole fields and left large holes, not even bothering to fill them back in. I have seen rifle pits and breastworks dug into and eroded. Whole bombproof's have been dug into obliterating the original entrance and ramp area.
Many fields have been totally cleared of artifacts and the field now loses it's historic value and also causes the field to be lost in some cases to developers, since the evidence of the battle or camp is no longer there.
Even today archaeologist are re-visiting battlefields and sites to determine aspects of the battle or march we never knew about. Relic hunters screw this all up.
I hear from many relic hunters that they are saving history! BS, saving what history? To take an item out of it's historic content and put in some cheap glass case, most likely to be sold at the next CW sale or on e-bay? At the same time they won't divulge the location of their finds because they are afraid they will be banned from the site or someone else will come in and find something. In the mean time some of these very sites they are "saving the history" from are not being protected because the preservationist/historian doesn't know where they are.
Some relic hunters even give the argument the items are in immediate danger from being lost forever due to the effects of time. If this was true then 99% of all the archaeological sites around the world shouldn't be in existence. Other than wood or steel many of the other metals will last many centuries in the ground.
If one wants to relic hunt then the item description and exact location should be recorded with the state. This would be a win win situation. The relic hunters could still keep their finds, the state/historians could then identify important sites and interpret the history, and the relic hunters can help clean up their very tarnished past.
In many areas sites are off limits to the public, and even professional historians and archaeologists because of the abuses of relic hunters.
I own a large field about a mile form a large CW camp. I can't tell you how many relic hunters have come down her on weekends and wanting to look for stuff. When I tell them no I don't want them or the liability on my property they usually get belligerent and remind me they are "saving history". I have caught some of them on my property later. I caught one guy digging on a battery I am the overseer on, right under the no trespassing sign. They pass the signs to break in the box tombs of 230 year old graves! Is it any wonder relic hunters have bad reputations?
You want to relic hunt? Have the property owners written permission, report your finds to the State Historic office. Finally turn in those irresponsible individuals you know about.
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| Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 03:10 pm |
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22nd Post |
Bama46
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I read of the damage done in Vicksburg and feel a rage unlike any i have felt lately. Of course, these people are not relic hunters, they are felons who deserve to be imprisoned for as long as possible and God willing, they will be!
At the same time, I can't help but relfect that if there were no market for these items, then the vast majority of the "hunters" would not engage in their pastime.
Lets see if we can "kill the market". I am reminded of the fellow who wento n Antiques Roadshow with a Confederate Cross of Honor and asked its value. He was told on national TV that it had no monentary value and was in fact stolen property; stolen from the grave of a Confederate soldier.
Anyone got any ideas how we could do this?
Ed
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| Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 03:35 pm |
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23rd Post |
39th Miss. Walker
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We can never curb the market for CW items. What we can do is educate the public as much as we can. There are many legitimate items on the market, how do we differentiate?
License the relic hunters, if they violate the law not only will they be subject to fines, jail time etc. but they can be permanently banned from the "hobby". Just like driving a car or hunting.
I went to an antique show a number of years ago in Charleston, SC. There sitting on a table was the Confederate Cross, just like what you describe. This one even had red clay still attached to the base where the AH pulled it out of the ground!
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| Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 04:59 pm |
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24th Post |
Bama46
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See, wher I would disagree with you is that the fellow with a Confederate Cross was not a AH (Artifact Hunter?). What he was was a G** D***** thief. In fact, I cannot think of an epitath so vile as to describe one who would steal from the dead.
You are right of course, education is the key, but I have no idea how to differentiate between the legitimate relic found legally as opposed to that which was stolen. For me this is another reason I do not own and will never own any artifacts.
it 'ain't mine... so let it lay!
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| Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 05:24 pm |
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25th Post |
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| Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 05:27 pm |
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26th Post |
Bama46
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I.....AHEM, stand corrected
Your definition is WAY better than mine!
LOL
Ed
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| Posted: Wed May 16th, 2007 10:49 pm |
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27th Post |
susansweet
Member
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We have a problem here in orange county California of gangs stealing the GAR medals on the graves to wear as bling. The Sons had marked every Union grave in Magnolia Cemetery in Garden Grove. A small cemetery that Sawtell Old Soldiers home had purchased buriel sites in for vets who had no funds to be buried . Others are locals that moved here after the war. The Sons have had to replace the markers several times.
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| Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 01:52 pm |
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28th Post |
Bama46
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Susan,
Not being from California, I don't know what "bling" is, but I can imagine. I do know what gangs are and like most, have no idea what to do about them.
As a southernor, I tend to look to the Confederate side of things (we really were right ya know!), but stealing from a grave is reprehensible regardless of affiliation, war, era, or anything else. When our ancestors are dishonored like that, we are all the losers. Damn Them!
Ed
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| Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 05:21 pm |
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29th Post |
susansweet
Member
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bling = jewelry , They put them on chains and wear them around their necks.
bama I am a dab. Daughter of Both . I have a great grandfather on one side and Great great grandfather on the other side.
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| Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 05:32 pm |
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30th Post |
Bama46
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Boy, its a good thing I am not a Son of Both, or I would be a .... 'course some people say I am anyhow!
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| Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 05:32 pm |
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31st Post |
Bama46
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Boy, its a good thing I am not a Son of Both, or I would be a .... 'course some people say I am anyhow!
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| Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 05:33 pm |
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32nd Post |
Bama46
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Boy, its a good thing I am not a Son of Both, or I would be a .... 'course some people say I am anyhow!
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| Posted: Mon May 21st, 2007 09:22 pm |
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33rd Post |
indy19th
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susansweet wrote: We have a problem here in orange county California of gangs stealing the GAR medals on the graves to wear as bling. The Sons had marked every Union grave in Magnolia Cemetery in Garden Grove. A small cemetery that Sawtell Old Soldiers home had purchased buriel sites in for vets who had no funds to be buried . Others are locals that moved here after the war. The Sons have had to replace the markers several times.
Great. One more thing to get mad over. I don't understand anyone who desecrates a graveyard. I'm sure most people who do that are tough to catch, but if someone's wearing a GAR medal, they've got all the evidence we need right around their neck.
I would assume that it's a felony to vandalize a grave. If it's not, it should be.
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| Posted: Mon May 21st, 2007 10:45 pm |
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34th Post |
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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indy19th wrote: susansweet wrote: Great. One more thing to get mad over. I don't understand anyone who desecrates a graveyard. I'm sure most people who do that are tough to catch, but if someone's wearing a GAR medal, they've got all the evidence we need right around their neck.
I would assume that it's a felony to vandalize a grave. If it's not, it should be.
Actually it's a federal offense; want to go to jail quick steal a veterans grave stone or GAR star. Problem is most prosocuting attorney's don't believe it a crime worth prosecuting. Yet another reason to appreciate lawyers and their profession.
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| Posted: Tue May 22nd, 2007 02:23 pm |
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35th Post |
Bama46
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Interesting,
I did not know it was a federal offense to steal a GAR Star. Is it also a federal offense to steal a southern Cross of Honor? It is not a trick question, I truly don't know
Ed
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| Posted: Tue May 22nd, 2007 03:16 pm |
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36th Post |
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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It's my understanding that the Southern Cross can only legitimetly be found ijn a grave... while grave robbing is not a federal offence I know it is pretty much a local one everywhere. When transported across state lines I believe it would become a federal offence but someone more learned than I will have to answer possitively.
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| Posted: Tue May 22nd, 2007 06:48 pm |
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37th Post |
Bama46
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Johan Steele wrote: It's my understanding that the Southern Cross can only legitimetly be found ijn a grave... while grave robbing is not a federal offence I know it is pretty much a local one everywhere. When transported across state lines I believe it would become a federal offence but someone more learned than I will have to answer possitively.
You are right, but then I misspoke or miswrote as the case may be...
The Southern Cross of Honor is a medal worn on the Lapel, and thus would be INSIDE the Casket. The Confederate Cross of Honor is an iron southern Cross that is driven into the ground in front of a headstone. These are stolen with great reguarity.
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| Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 08:09 pm |
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38th Post |
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