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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Genealogy > Letters, Diaries and Journals > Interesting Conferderate Relic |
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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Genealogy > Letters, Diaries and Journals > Interesting Conferderate Relic |
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| Interesting Conferderate Relic | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 05:59 pm |
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1st Post |
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Bamanut Member 
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Well I came across a very interesting relic and wanted to share it with you guys. I purchased this at an estate sale just outside of Baltimore and wonder what you guys might think about it. The coin is a 1860 silver dollar in poor condition and when one first sees it they might not think much of it but on closer inspection it gets very interesting. The coin has a hole in the top just right of the head of Liberty so it must have been worn as a piece of jewlery. That in itself is not that exciting BUT when you turn the coin over its a whole different story. The coin has a C.S.A. stamped in the middle of the eagle and then around the outside of the coin just inside the rim you find this inscribed in script " Lt. Col Dorsey Pender 1rst North Carolina Regiment" ...My thinking is that this was a home made dog tag and was worn by a conferedate solider and I can only assume it must have belonged to Lt. Col William Dorsey Pender who was wounded at Gettysburg and later died. How about some thoughts from you guys ... Bamanut  " alt="" " alt=""> " alt=""> " alt="">Last edited on Tue May 10th, 2011 06:05 pm by Bamanut |
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 06:21 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Texas Defender Member 
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Bamanut- The coin appears to be a silver dollar minted in 1860 in New Orleans. The area around the rim on the reverse seems to be ground down in order to have a flat surface to make an inscription. What is strange to me is the amount of "Honest wear" that seems to be on the obverse. I cannot see how it would have been possible to get that amount of wear from the time the coin was minted until William Pender died in July of 1863. Thus, I cannot believe that it was used as a : "Dogtag" by Pender himself. My theory is that the coin was inscribed many years after 1863 as a form of memorial for Pender. If I am correct, then it is probable that it was done by one of Pender's soldiers as a tribute to him.
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 07:00 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Bamanut Member
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Tex I suppose that might be an explination but I would think that this coin has been handled a lot over the last 150 years and even had it been in mint condition when and if Pender wore it the coin might show a good bit of wear now. I think your right about the reverse side having been ground down so it could have the scrip work done. Scott Texas Defender wrote: Bamanut-
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 07:10 pm |
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4th Post |
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Texas Defender Member
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Bamanut- I handled US coins for most of the 20th Century, and I never saw, or even heard of, a Seated Liberty dollar in circulation. Its clear to me that the wear was on the coin before the inscription was made. My guess is that the inscription was done circa 1900.
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 07:45 pm |
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5th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member 
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Pender was a Major Gen. by the time of Gettysburg. So far, all I can find is that he started off the war as Captain of Artillery, then to train recruits and missed First Manassass. In August, 1861, he joined the 3rd North Carolina Volunteers as Colonel (http://www.angelfire.com/wv/wasec5/pender.html), ( http://www.civilwarreference.com/people/index.php?peopleID=406) I am trying to find when (or IF) he held the rank of Lt. Colonel, but cannot.....The websites I have cited suggest he was Capt. of Artillery, then Colonel of the 3rd NC....IF he was ever a Lt. Col, I suspect it was when he was in charge of trainng troops, but I have not yet found a biography of him to suggest that such is the case. Interesting find you have there!! Thanks for sharing and I hope you find out about it!!!
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 07:55 pm |
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6th Post |
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Bamanut Member
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Well I am thinking the more I look that it is like ole Tex said it most likely was made either by someone who served under him and maybe sometimes after the war. I did find where Pender first entered the CSA with the 1rst North Carolina or the Bethal Regiment then later took over the 3rd North Carolina.
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 08:14 pm |
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7th Post |
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Texas Defender Member
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Albert- That confused me as well, so I checked into it. According to this source, Pender was indeed a lieutenant colonel in the 1st North Carolina- at least for a short time in 1861. I believe that he was promoted to colonel of the 3rd North Carolina with the effective date of 27 May 1861. General William Pender - Confederate Hero Last edited on Tue May 10th, 2011 09:07 pm by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 09:07 pm |
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8th Post |
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TimK Member
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Bamanut - This may be asking the obvious, but was the estate sale from which you purchased this relic from an estate of a descendant of William Pender? If so, I might go back and ask them what they knew about this coin. If not, and this is probably an even dumber question than the first one, but is there a way find a family tree of Pender's and find any of his descendants? This is quite the interesting mystery you have going here. I would love to here this coin's story.
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| Posted: Tue May 10th, 2011 09:20 pm |
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9th Post |
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Hellcat Person 
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I can find a May 16, 1861 date for his becoming a Colonel (see the second link Albert posted, ended up there through other sources), but I can't find anywhere his being a Lt. Colonel. I've found him as Captain Pender when searching through Confederate Generals (http://grapevine.com.au/~kwebb/cong_p.html) and the War of the Rebellion, and in the latter I find him mentioned as Colonel Pender in a letter from November 1861. The last mention of him as a Captain I found was a letter to Beauregard from the Inspector General dated April 1, 1861. It's quite possible he was a Lt. Colonel for a brief period. Just haven't found it yet.
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| Posted: Wed May 11th, 2011 03:22 am |
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10th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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Texas Deender-----Thanks for the info!!!.....I wasn't confident that the websites I cited didn't simply "gloss over" his Lt Colonelcy....The problem with internet websites is that they may not give the entire story, the missing parts of which, are the parts we are trying to find, of course!!.....Thanks for the research!!!
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| Posted: Wed May 11th, 2011 04:48 am |
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11th Post |
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Texas Defender Member
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Albert- I feel confident that the folks in North Carolina have their act together when it comes to General Pender's service in North Carolina regiments. However, its also clear to me that I can't vouch for the accuracy of everything in the article that I linked to. General William Pender - Confederate Hero For example, it seems unlikely to me that there were any Apache Indians in Washington Territory in 1859. As for the Battle of Spokane Plains, it seems that it took place in September of 1858, involving Spokans, Yakimas, and a few renegade Nez Perce. Battle of Spokane Plains As for the date November 28, 1859- I'm unaware of any significant event in American History that took place on that day (Besides the death of Washington Irving).  This is just another reminder (If anyone needed one) that you can't take everything you read online as gospel. Last edited on Wed May 11th, 2011 05:07 am by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Wed May 11th, 2011 02:47 pm |
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12th Post |
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j harold 587 Member 
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I fear that the item is an original dollar that has current engraving. These have popped up on e-bay on occassion. Dorsey Pender is frequently the name used. I do not claim to be an expert, you may go to savagestation.com to read about the large volume of faked relics being offered. I beleive ther are photographs of a simular Pender I.D.
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| Posted: Wed May 11th, 2011 03:11 pm |
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13th Post |
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Texas Defender Member
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j harold 587- I might be wrong, but looking at the photo, I don't believe that the inscription was done recently. The hole that someone put in the coin indicates that it might have been used for some purpose other than as a coin, perhaps as a type of jewelry. In addition to the hole, there are two gouges on the reverse where someone apparently tried making holes. They are actually in the inscription, and thus were made after it. Its hard to get into the mind of the person or persons who to my way of thinking have mutilated a perfectly good coin. But its my guess that they did what they did a long time ago. UPDATING: Taking into account j harold's alert, I've looked into the matter further. I've discovered this website: Exonumia Fake, Fantasy tokens and medals, badges, Slave Tags, political, more! It specifically mentions the fake 1860 O silver dollar with the Pender inscription. (It doesn't mention the hole or the gouges). Whats amazing about it, according to this source, is that it isn't the full size of a silver dollar. I can't tell the size of the coin in the photo, and the designs of the half dollar and silver dollar were the same. Obviously, if the coin in the photo is smaller in size and weight than a genuine silver dollar (It would be easy to compare it to a Morgan dollar), then its obviously a fake. If that is the case, then everything I've said about the object in the photo is wrong. (Kind of like a doctor making a diagnosis without examining the patient). Its hard to imagine someone going to a lot of trouble to make a very elaborate fake item like this, and then making it the wrong size. It would be sad if this item is one of the fakes. But clearly the first test to put it to is the size of the object. Last edited on Wed May 11th, 2011 04:10 pm by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Wed May 11th, 2011 06:05 pm |
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14th Post |
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j harold 587 Member
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You may wish to look at http://www.rulen.com/4f/pender.htm to see another disk that looks very simular to the one on this thread. Do not feel bad! You have a lot of company, who have been scammed also. I have a coulple of "dug buckles" that are about 30 years old. We are never too old to learn.
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| Posted: Wed May 11th, 2011 06:24 pm |
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15th Post |
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Texas Defender Member
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j harold- I've looked at the last website you posted, and it shows a very similar object relating to Pender. This one is half dollar size, but the hole in it seems very similar to the one in Bamanut's 1860 O silver dollar (if thats what it is). This similarity in shape, as well as the existence of multiple Pender related objects (of apparently different dimensions), makes me seriously suspect Bamanut's object. You're right about one never being too old to learn. I hadn't seen any of these nefarious things before. But I can assure you that I've handled enough silver dollars to know if an object I held in my hand was the size of a silver dollar or not. My mistake in this case was in assuming the dimensions (Which I am now curious to know) and other characteristics of an object that I had only seen in a photo and hadn't held in my hand. Theres a lesson in that. At any rate, thanks for the information. This has been very educational. Last edited on Wed May 11th, 2011 07:40 pm by Texas Defender |
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| Posted: Thu May 12th, 2011 07:49 am |
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16th Post |
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Hellcat Person
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Should have thought of that possibility. Oh well, at least it's good for discussion purposes.
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| Posted: Sat May 14th, 2011 03:24 pm |
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17th Post |
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Bamanut Member
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Yes it did turn out to be a fake and I did get my money back ....thanks for all the help. Bamanut
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| Posted: Sat May 14th, 2011 11:08 pm |
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18th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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How'd ya find out it was a fake and was it hard to get your money back?? I sure wish it had turned out different for you.....
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| Posted: Sat May 14th, 2011 11:55 pm |
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19th Post |
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Bamanut Member
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There is a guy who owns a relic store in Gettysburg who I had met at an auction a month or so ago ..very nice guy so I called him and discribed it ...he told me about it being a fake ..I called the auction Co. where I bought it and mentioned the FBI had been made aware of these fake coins and he not only offered my purchase price back but to also pay for my gas .... Bamanut
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| Posted: Sun May 15th, 2011 12:39 am |
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20th Post |
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Albert Sailhorst Member
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WOW!!!!...I am glad it all got straightened out, but still wish things had been different for you......
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