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| Posted: Wed Apr 26th, 2006 02:53 pm |
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1st Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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The thread about the John Bell Hood website was starting to turn into a Franklin thread, so I figured I'd open one. I have a question for Eric, SamHood, or anyone else who knows the area well. Other questions, comments, etc. about Franklin can be placed here as well.
As you know there is currently a boy's club, or possibly a YMCA, adjacent to the Carter House on the north side. From Eric's book and other sources, I understand there were Carter House outbuildings north of the house. So am I correct in assuming that these outbuildings were on the land where the YMCA sits now? And if so, would that put Opdycke's location (before plugging the hole) in the parking lot of the old mall that is adjacent to the YMCA on the north? I realize it's minutae, but I like to picture things the way they were 
Also, the south side of the old Pizza Hut property featues a sharp drop-off of 5-10 feet. Would you say that's the exact location of that section of the outer works?
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26th, 2006 03:28 pm |
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2nd Post |
Eric
Guest
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The outbuildings were actually located mostly west and northwest of the Carter House. The side of the YMCA that is closest to the house is where the Federal line ran, about where the 129th Indiana was located. Check out the map on page 329 of my book. When that ground was being readied for construction they actually cut through the old Federal works. I heard bullets still in old cartridge boxes literally poured out.
The drop-off south of the old Pizza Hut exists because the ground the building stood on was elevated to make it level. Basically the land is somewhat distorted today. If you stand in the drop-off area that is about 1864 ground level, which is about 6-7 feet below the main Federal line, which existed on the other side of Cleburne Street (the street that runs off of Columbia Avenue past the property). Also remember due north of the Pizza hut property is where the salient in the Federal line existed. So no, the drop-off is not where the works were located.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27th, 2006 02:21 pm |
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3rd Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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Eric,
Thanks alot for this perspective. Certainly changes the picture of those two areas in my mind.
I have one more question for you when you get the time. You're familiar no doubt with how the intersection of the RR and Lewisburg Pike looks today. Yet there are many references to the RR cut in your book and others. Can you clear up for me what that area looked like then compared to now? Is the current Lewisburg Pike running the same course as the old? Was the "cut" where the crrent LP intersects the RR? Appreciate your help clearing this up for me.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28th, 2006 02:51 pm |
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4th Post |
Eric
Guest
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Lewisburg Pike does follow the same path as it did in 1864. The railroad cut is actually just slightly north of the pike and railroad intersection. The cut was actually created when the engineers had to carve into edge of the small hill just to get level ground on which to lay the tracks. If you have access to Levi Scofield's book look at page 36. That view is looking south toward the intersection of the pike and railroad and the north embankment of the cut is visible on the right side of the tracks. Hope that wasn't too confusing. The best thing to do is walk the ground and when you're down here next time we'll do it. It will make much more sense then.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28th, 2006 07:49 pm |
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5th Post |
Savez
Member
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what are they going to do on the old pizza hut property???
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29th, 2006 01:23 am |
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6th Post |
Eric
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At this time it remains unclear. I know there is a push to keep it simple (which I agree with), perhaps a rail fence surrounding the property and a small marker. Many want to keep it largely as green space for now. The thinking behind this is that right across the street (Cleburne Street that is) a small strip mall exists, with a Domino's Pizza, a Mexican restaurant, and a beer/cigarette/snack shop. Many in the community feel that if that property can be obtained a significant battlefield marker could then be erected, rather than forging ahead with just the old Pizza Hut property. I agree with this train of thought (even if takes 5-7 years) because just east of the Domino's Pizza strip mall is an older house that is located where the Carter cotton gin stood. Currently the Williamson County Heritage Foundation owns that house and is leasing it to either attorneys or CPAs. That lease is over in less than 2 years and there is talk of then moving the house and try to erect a replica of the gin. With that and hopefully the strip mall, as well as the Pizza Hut tract across the street, you would really have something going.
So it goes along step by step. But hopefully the city won't go over overboard with the Pizza Hut property, put up something big, and then be content. I'd like to keep the momentum going. God knows it's been long enough.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29th, 2006 03:04 pm |
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7th Post |
samhood
Member
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Eric and Javal:
Seems I recall David Fraley once telling me that the elevation of the RR tracks in the area of the Lewisburg Pike crossing has been raised since 1864. You might want to keep that in mind when walking and interpreting the ground.
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| Posted: Mon May 1st, 2006 10:22 pm |
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8th Post |
Eric
Guest
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Sam,
I'm not sure what David's source for that claim is, but I have never come across anything to suggest it. If you look at the ravine next to the Collins Farm it would have only made sense for the engineers in the 1800's to have placed the railroad bed where it is today. It they ran it through the ravine the tracks would have dipped down significantly and been subjected to flooding. I think even nineteenth century engineers would have been smart enough to avoid that potential problem. Perhaps David is thinking the cut was where the railroad and Lewisburg Pike intersect. However, the cut was (and still is) further up the tracks, closer to the old section of town.
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| Posted: Mon May 15th, 2006 07:14 pm |
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9th Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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For those of us who live and breath Franklin, this is a very cool story. It'll be in the news section of CWi tomorrow, but I couldn't wait...
Civil War enthusiasts rally around tattered flag
"... The flag was issued in February 1864 and was carried at the front of one of Mississippi's most famous regiments, under Lt. Gen. William Joseph Hardee and Maj. Gen. Patrick Ronayne Cleburne.
Carrying the flag was Cpl. Joseph T. McBride. He was killed at the Battle of Franklin while attempting to breach the Federal Works near Fountain B. Carter's cotton gin.
The gun smoke was so thick, soldiers walked with their hands in front of their faces to help them breathe.
"It was a deadly honor to be a color guard because he was the first person people shot at," Tarr said. "The other side would want to try and cause confusion. No matter what side of the war you fought on, the flag was about gallantry and bravery in fighting."
Lose the flag, and morale was lost.
Somehow, a 17-year-old union private named John Gregory with the 2nd Indiana Light Artillery came across the flag....."
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| Posted: Mon May 15th, 2006 10:28 pm |
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10th Post |
Eric
Guest
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This is a great article - what a discovery!!! However, the article mentions the 32nd MS and 45th MS as if they might be one unit. Actually, Cpl. McBride was a member of the original 45th MS, which in 1864 officially became the 3rd MS Battalion. At Franklin the 3rd MS Battalion was consolidated with the 5th MS Infantry. McBride is clearly listed on the roster of the 3rd MS Battalion. The 32nd MS Infantry was consolidated with the 8th MS Infantry. Both of these consolidated units were part of Lowrey's Brigade, Cleburne's Division, but they operated separately within the brigade. Basically, McBride never had any affiliation with the 32nd MS other than it was in his brigade.
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| Posted: Mon May 15th, 2006 10:48 pm |
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11th Post |
Eric
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Should have dug a little deeper before piping up. The 32nd MS and 45th MS were consolidated until the summer of '64 when the 45th became the 3rd MS Battalion and was consolidated with another unit. So McBride did have an affiliation with the 32nd. Interesting that at Franklin he was still carrying the old flag. Even more interesting is that the artilleryman who ends up with the flag was not even at Franklin. He was at Nashville on Nov 30 so somehow the flag got taken there and transferred hands.
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| Posted: Fri May 19th, 2006 11:29 pm |
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12th Post |
Steven Cone
Member
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Gentleman , pleasure to be here with yall.
As my passion for this particluar battle grown over the past several years Its amazing that I have not meet any of you in person even though I have been in the same area or event.
Eric,
I like to thank you once again for your wonderful book.. And for spreading the word on Johnson's Division Night Attack.
Sam,
A pleasure to meet you sir being that your a relative of Gen Hood. Thomas & David from the Carter House speak highly of you.
Regards,
Steven
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| Posted: Sat May 20th, 2006 01:41 pm |
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13th Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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Welcome to the board Steven. I seem to remember your name as being rather active in CWi several years ago. Did you used to go by the moniker "Lil' Steve"? Either way, welcome...always good to have more Franklin-centric folk aboard!
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| Posted: Sat May 20th, 2006 03:14 pm |
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14th Post |
Steven Cone
Member
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Yes I did ,, I had some computer troubles for a bit then with the forum crash couldnt ever seem to get logged in and Know I got fixed as will .. So now I back so to speak.
regards, steven
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| Posted: Fri May 26th, 2006 03:28 pm |
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15th Post |
samhood
Member
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Steve:
It has been a very long while, but our paths have crossed before...seems your name was in my e-address book for a long time. Perhaps we had met at some Carter House event, or corresponded via email previously on some subject. Good to hear from you again.
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| Posted: Sat May 27th, 2006 04:10 am |
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16th Post |
Steven Cone
Member
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Now that mention it I do recall corrisponding with by email a few times..
regards,
Steven
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20th, 2006 12:10 pm |
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17th Post |
sixthtennessee
Guest
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Eric:
I grew up in Jackson, TN and attended college at UT/Knoxville. Many of my fraternity brothers were from Columbia and attended BGA. One of them remembered my interest in the Civil War, particularly the western theater, and pointed out your book.
Just excellent.
I have tried to follow the war of late through the history of one of my hometown units, the Sixth Tennessee, and have found little substance. However, early on the Sixth was consolidated with the Ninth (again, men from West Tennessee) and a professor at UT/Martin has written a history of the Ninth, which should mirror the Sixth to a large extent. The book is on order.
The Sixth/Ninth were part of Brown's division, just west of the pike, I believe. Any other sources you would advise?
Ron Walker
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2006 06:17 pm |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14th, 2006 12:01 pm |
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19th Post |
bschulte
Civil War Blogger
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I saw there was a Franklin thread, so I figured I'd post here. I have been writing out a multi-part blog entry on Eric Jacobson's Spring Hill and Franklin book for Cause and For Country and in the latest entry concerning the Battle of Franklin I decided to do a lengthy comparison and contrast using Eric and Wiley Sword, author of The Confederacy's Last Hurrah. After summarizing Jacobson's account of the battle, you'll see 14 key controversies and questions I came up with to take a closer look at. These questions are (and their answers are in the blog entry due to length concerns):
1. Why didn't Hood order up Lee's Corps and the artillery sooner? Did Lee's absence affect the eventual outcome?
2. Was a flanking move by Forrest (instead of a frontal attack) likely to succeed or even possible?
3. Did an angry John Bell Hood "punish" Cheatham, Cleburne, and their men for their supposed failings when attacking breastworks?
4. If he didn't punish his men, why DID Hood attack?
5. Why did Wagner decide to stay in an advanced position despite overwhelming odds?
6. Why did the Carter family remain in their house on the front lines?
7. Who broke first, Conrad or Lane?
8. Cockrell's Brigade or Sears': Who attacked first in French's Division?
9. Featherston's Brigade took massive casualties in a railroad cut from enfilading artillery fire. Was there any way to avoid this?
10. How do both authors describe the death of Cleburne?
11. Opdycke suggested after the war that he beat CONFEDERATE soldiers over the head with a pistol, rather than just his own Union stragglers. Was he telling the truth?
12. David Stanley received a painful wound across the back of his neck during the fight. First, did Jacob Cox suggest that Stanley leave the field to get his wound dressed? Second, did Stanley really leave the field? Third, did Stanley deserve a Medal of Honor for his role in the Battle of Franklin?
13. John Adams and his brigade were being slaughtered as they attempted to cross the Osage orange barrier. Adams suddenly spurred his horse to the left, finding an opening in the trees. As he galloped toward the Union line both he and his horse were shot. Where did Adams and his horse fall? Within or without the Union lines?
14. Patrick Dowling, inspector general of Moore's Brigade, gathered together available units including the 101st Ohio to save the 111th Ohio's left flank. How crucial was this move to the final outcome of the battle?
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts both here and in my blog comments! At the very least, I'm hoping to get a good discussion going.
____________________
Brett S.
Beyond the Crater: The Petersburg Campaign Online
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14th, 2006 06:11 pm |
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20th Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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Brett -
Just finished reading your comparative analysis on the above questions. Fantastic job! I'd encourage everyone to head over to your blog to check it out.
One question I've often asked myself, and I can't remember if Eric or Sword touched on it. Most of the talk regarding flanking center on the Confederate right/ Union left. What about a flank move the other way (to the west of Privet Knob)? There may be something terrain-wise that made it impractical, but I wonder if it was considered.
Also, since the flooded river was bad enough to block the Union from continuing to Nashville, would that same flooded river (which practically surrounds Franklin) made ANY flanking move impractical?
Anyway, great job on the comparison pieces. I follow it faithfully.
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