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 Posted: Tue Apr 7th, 2009 01:38 pm
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HankC
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slowtrot wrote: Mr. Hank C and Ole It appears to me that you didn't go to the sites I listed therefore you have no idea why I stated the proposition I did. If you are that close minded there's no point in discussing my statement that Grant lied about his Chattanooga plan. Pointless arguements aren't my bag.


Slowtrot




My summary comes from about 2/3 of the way through http://aotc.net/Chattanooga.htm.
 
However, hopefully this discussion can be better than mere pointing to web sites... 
 
HanKC

Last edited on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 01:42 pm by HankC



 Posted: Tue Apr 7th, 2009 07:34 pm
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slowtrot
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berrydancer said:
slowtrot:

"I must concur with The Iron Duke's first post above. In defending Thomas, you're guilty of the same things you accuse Grant and Sherman of doing, namely slander."

Slander “Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.”  My statements are correct as many others attest.  Check your O.R.'s.

"Thomas was always right, but Grant was a lying drunk"

Why do you say that?  I never did!  I don’t think Thomas was always right, as to the rest your entitled to your opinion.

"Thomas had the best plans, but they were corrupted by that crazy Sherman who got jealous of Grant's butchery back East."

Not my statement either.  John Logan made that statement.  Its in Castel’s “Decision in the West” and p. 233 in McKinney’s book “Education in Violence.”.  However, some feel the same as you about Sherman’s metal aberation. 

"You do your argument no justice if you rely on ad hominem attacks in order to make it."

According to this definition, you are making the ad Hominem attacks

“Ad hominem argument is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or attacking the person who proposed the argument (personal attack) in an attempt to discredit the argument. It is also used when an opponent is unable to find fault with an argument, yet for various reasons, the opponent disagrees with it, guilty of an “Ad Hominem Attack!”

"That being said, Thomas was an excellent commander. (I like to think of him as the Union Longstreet.)"

I’d say he was the Union's “Lee”.


"He performed ably throughout the war, and was superb at Chickamauga. I do agree that he has often gotten short shrift by history"

Agreed!

"though I don't believe it's because of some "liberal academic" conspiracy, as you mentioned in your initial posting."

What would you call any statement coming out of “our” Universities?  All polls taken indicate the faculties vote 90%+ democrat, what else would you call them?  I can think of several other adjectives.  However, there are other reasons.  I once wrote to Morningside about the lack of books on Thomas and their response was “we only print what sells.” 

Slowtrot



 Posted: Tue Apr 7th, 2009 07:42 pm
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slowtrot
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"Iron duke said:

Chickamauga was a draw? I'm sure that would be news to the men of the Army of the Cumberland. And please explain how the Battle of Nashville is comparable with the battles of Old Fritz.


News to me too!


Who's "old Fritz?

No fair trick questions!

 

Slowtrot



 Posted: Tue Apr 7th, 2009 11:24 pm
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slowtrot
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Here's my idea of the plan. Am interested in your differences:

 

1) Hooker to hold Bridgeport, maintain the cracker line and the right of the US line.

2) Sherman arrives, providing the US numerical superiority (60K to 50K), he marches behind Thomas to the left flank.

3) Hooker moves around the shoulder of lookout mountain and advances the US right flank.

4) Sherman prepares to cross the river

5) Hooker and Sherman attack the respective CS flanks

6) Thomas maintain the center and prepare to exploit any advantage.

 

I gave you the orders as written by Grant.  What is this about?

 

 

Slowtrot



 Posted: Tue Apr 7th, 2009 11:55 pm
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barrydancer
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"What would you call any statement coming out of “our” Universities? All polls taken indicate the faculties vote 90%+ democrat, what else would you call them? I can think of several other adjectives. However, there are other reasons. I once wrote to Morningside about the lack of books on Thomas and their response was “we only print what sells.”"

What else would I call them? Scholars, professionals, historians. I fail to see how their voting patterns, whether Democratic or Republican, translate in any way to amount or quality of scholarship available about George Thomas.

Morningside is a different bag. They're a private entity out to make money publishing books. If they don't think a book on Thomas will sell, they aren't going to publish it. There's nothing liberal or conservative about it.



 Posted: Wed Apr 8th, 2009 12:47 am
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ole
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There's nothing liberal or conservative about it.Amen, brother. I'm often amazed that people with whom I'm in 100 percent accord on matters of the civil war, are poles apart from me politically. Took me a while to absorb that simple fact.



 Posted: Wed Apr 8th, 2009 03:41 am
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"Thomas had the best plans, but they were corrupted by that crazy Sherman who got jealous of Grant's butchery back East."

Not my statement either.  John Logan made that statement.  Its in Castel’s “Decision in the West”"

On which page of Castel's book can we find this?

"Chickamauga was a draw? I'm sure that would be news to the men of the Army of the Cumberland. And please explain how the Battle of Nashville is comparable with the battles of Old Fritz.


News to me too!"

Well that is posted on the website that you claim is yours: 


"His fame originated at one battle. When, with remnants of the Army of the Cumberland, he fought Bragg’s Army of Tennessee to a draw at Chickamauga Creek."

"Who's "old Fritz?

No fair trick questions!"

If you don't know who Old Fritz is then how can you make comparisons to him?



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 Posted: Wed Apr 8th, 2009 06:46 pm
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slowtrot
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Iron Duke said:
 
"Chickamauga was a draw? I'm sure that would be news to the men of the Army of the Cumberland” 


This is what your referring to I assume!:

“His fame originated at one battle. When, with remnants of the Army of the Cumberland, he fought Bragg’s Army of Tennessee to a draw at Chickamauga Creek.”  This is a quote from the title page of the Web Site I claim as mine!  Are you disputing my ownership?

I guess you’re not familiar with the battle of Chickamauga?  But in a nut shell Rosecrans the commander of the Army of the Cumberland engaged Bragg and the Army of Tennessee early in the morning at a place near Chickamauga Creek.  Rosecrans, after a severe fight thought his Army was defeated and about 1:00PM retreated to Chattanooga with about half his Army.  He left Thomas with about 24,000 members of the Army of the Cumberland to fight Bragg.  Thomas grouped his men around Horseshoe ridge and held off the Rebel Army until about 5:00PM.  He held off the Rebel Army all through the afternoon.  After continuous attacks by the Rebels slackened and stopped, he was ordered by Rosecrans to move to Chattanooga.  Then he proceeded to march to Chattanooga.  Thomas had held the Army of Tennessee and Bragg to a DRAW!  This is where Thomas received the title of “Rock of Chickamauga.”


Slowtrot



 Posted: Thu Apr 9th, 2009 12:52 pm
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George H. Thomas took over command and began consolidating forces on Horseshoe Ridge and Snodgrass Hill. Although the Rebels launched determined assaults on these forces, they held until after dark. Thomas then led these men from the field leaving it to the Confederates.

(Yea, I kind of agree, it was a draw. He drew his men right off the field of battle!
)

The Union retired to Chattanooga while the Rebels occupied the surrounding heights.

It was just after this point, it was determined they more than likely would have to abandon
Chattanooga as their supplies were cut off and they were starving.

But low and behold a Savior appeared in the presence of a telegram from General U.S. Grant who said "hey wait a minute, hold that position" I will be right down and show you how to re-supply your station and we can beat them. Thomas courageously said. "I will hold till we starve."

Thus, this was the first time that Grant stuck a boot up his butt get him motivated. Second at
Nashville.
Buzzard



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 Posted: Thu Apr 9th, 2009 03:10 pm
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bschulte
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ole wrote: One might also go to Brett Schulte's web site wherein Bobrick's book gets a scathing review. Bobrick commented on the review and some remarkably pleasant dialogues were entered.

Ole

For those of you interested, the review of Master of War is at:

Review of Master of War



 Posted: Thu Apr 9th, 2009 03:44 pm
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ole
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Thanks for coming back on that brett. I thought the exchange was more than civil, but I'm quite old and can't remember how to cite sites.



 Posted: Thu Apr 9th, 2009 04:47 pm
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bschulte
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ole wrote: Thanks for coming back on that brett. I thought the exchange was more than civil, but I'm quite old and can't remember how to cite sites.
Ole,

Not a problem!  I try to visit all of the Civil War forums I belong to as much as possible, but I'm a new Dad and I just don't have as much time as I used to!  I don't know that Mr. Bobrick will ever convince me that his book is not a hagiography, but the discussions in the comments were surprisingly civil for a topic which, as we see here, has a tendency to take a turn for the worse.

Last edited on Thu Apr 9th, 2009 04:51 pm by bschulte



 Posted: Fri Apr 10th, 2009 05:33 pm
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The Iron Duke
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I guess you’re not familiar with the battle of Chickamauga?  But in a nut shell Rosecrans the commander of the Army of the Cumberland engaged Bragg and the Army of Tennessee early in the morning at a place near Chickamauga Creek.  Rosecrans, after a severe fight thought his Army was defeated and about 1:00PM retreated to Chattanooga with about half his Army.  He left Thomas with about 24,000 members of the Army of the Cumberland to fight Bragg.  Thomas grouped his men around Horseshoe ridge and held off the Rebel Army until about 5:00PM.  He held off the Rebel Army all through the afternoon.  After continuous attacks by the Rebels slackened and stopped, he was ordered by Rosecrans to move to Chattanooga.  Then he proceeded to march to Chattanooga.  Thomas had held the Army of Tennessee and Bragg to a DRAW!  This is where Thomas received the title of “Rock of Chickamauga.”


 

Saying that Chickamauga is a draw would be like someone saying that Gettsyburg was NOT a defeat for Lee because he left the battlefield on his own volition.

Thomas fought a delaying action which in of itself was successful but the battle and campaign was still a Union loss.

I would still like to have that page from Castel's book cited for us and explain how Thomas's battles are similar to Old Fritz's.

Last edited on Fri Apr 10th, 2009 05:37 pm by The Iron Duke



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 Posted: Fri Apr 10th, 2009 05:36 pm
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Thanks for that book review Brett. It was quite enlightening.



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 Posted: Fri Apr 10th, 2009 08:43 pm
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The Iron Duke wrote: Thanks for that book review Brett. It was quite enlightening.
You're welcome!  I'm glad you enjoyed it.  James Durney, an Amazon.com Top 500 reviewer and TOCWOC blogger, was the reviewer, just in case anyone thought I wrote it. :)



 Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 02:01 am
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slowtrot
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Iron duke said:

“I would still like to have that page from Castel's book cited for us and explain how Thomas's battles are similar to Old Fritz's.”




I thought I mentioned two books.  Did you look at them?  I thought it was in both 

I stated on the web site that “Some” see parallels to Frederick the Great.  I don’t see what kind of explanation you need unless you want a definition of “SOME.”  Here’s one definition:  “An indefinite or unspecified number or portion.”  I remembered the comparison from something I read a while ago.

 I’m through playing the gotcha games. 

Slowtrot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 



 Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 02:49 pm
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ole
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Believe I heard that Benson Bobrick is going to discuss his book tonight on BookTV. Check your local times and listings. I'd heard it was at 8, but don't recall if that was Central or Eastern.

Ole



 Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 03:15 pm
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bschulte
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slowtrot wrote: Iron duke said:

“I would still like to have that page from Castel's book cited for us and explain how Thomas's battles are similar to Old Fritz's.”




I thought I mentioned two books.  Did you look at them?  I thought it was in both 



 I’m through playing the gotcha games. 

Slowtrot
 


Slowtrot,

The only games I've seen played on this thread are by you.  This is simply the last of a string of them, which only hurts your arguments and makes you look like you're WAAAY out there when it comes to Thomas versus everyone else.  The man asked for a page number.  Can you provide it or do you expect him to leaf through the book page by page?  If you can provide it, DO SO.  If you can't, stop mentioning lengthy books as sources for your arguments.  It's as simple as that.



 Posted: Sat Apr 11th, 2009 07:47 pm
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Schultz said:

Slowtrot,

The only games I've seen played on this thread are by you.  This is simply the last of a string of them, which only hurts your arguments and makes you look like you're WAAAY out there when it comes to Thomas versus everyone else.  The man asked for a page number.  Can you provide it or do you expect him to leaf through the book page by page?  If you can provide it, DO SO.  If you can't, stop mentioning lengthy books as sources for your arguments.  It's as simple as that.


The arguement was about a statement by Logan!

I gave two cites.  One had a page # because I had the book at hand the other was in another room.  I believed the statment was in both books.  If he really wanted both statements then yes, he could look thru the multipaged book.  The other book gave the cite.  Since the subject was Logans opinions of why Grant was getting headlines and Shermans problems.  However he wanted to play a gotchagame game because I assume he knew  that the first book did not have the passage.

I also included a comparison of the Battle of Nashville being compared to some of Frederick the greats that I used on by web site.  He apparently misread it.  The cite said "Some" think the battle of Nashville is comparable . . ..  Now, in that context the statement is inclusive of a number of people thinking something similar.  I remember reading it and included it on my site.  Now he's nit picking statements on my web site and telling me to defend them here?

Slowtrot

Last edited on Sun Apr 12th, 2009 11:29 am by slowtrot



 Posted: Sun Apr 12th, 2009 02:09 am
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bschulte
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That's fine.  You guys are free to split hairs here.  Both sides just seem to be talking past each other in this thread.



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