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 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 01:05 am
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MildMan
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Texas Defender,

Did Linoln actually "install pro union govenments"? I did not see this reflected in the link you provided.

The link says that that he took steps to encourage loyal governments and pro union sentiment, but installing implies that he selected the leaders and put them in place. As in the Webster's " to put (someone) in an official or important job". Can you cite an instance where actully installed a state govenment offical in a border state?



 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 01:24 am
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Texas Defender
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Mildman-

   The language in the link that I provided seems very clear to me. Your attention is directed to Section I in the link below:

Abraham Lincoln and the Border States

   Section I begins: "Lincoln's border state policy blended several objectives. The first was to preserve or ESTABLISH (my caps) loyal governments in each of these states. (How Maryland became a : "Loyal" state is explained by the passage ending with Footnote 9)

   The first paragraph ends with this: "In devising his border state policy, as would be true later with his Reconstruction program, Lincoln always gave first priority to placing loyal men in control of the state government.".

   The first two paragraphs of that section explain his policy relative to assuring that citizens loyal to the Union ran the respective state governments. Mr. Lincoln did not have to personally select those citizens that would run the state governments. He only had to be assured that they were loyal to the Union and presumably would implement the policies that he favored, while suppressing those citizens whose loyalty might be to the other side.

 

 

Last edited on Thu Sep 19th, 2013 01:53 am by Texas Defender



 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 01:25 pm
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MildMan
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Texas Defender,

You are often a staunch proponent of "accuracy" but if this is your evidence, you have overstated your point.

Lincoln’s OBJECTIVE was to establish a pro union government and his PRIORITY was to PLACE loyal union men. Of course it was! He believed that secession was illegal, and for this reason took steps to address what he considered to be treasonous activity.

But can you provide me with examples of state officials he actually INSTALLED, i.e. he actually picked and put officals in positions in state government in lieu of properly elected officials? If you can you were accurate in using the word installed, other wise you can correct your own post as you have corrected the posts of so many other forum participants.

Last edited on Thu Sep 19th, 2013 01:56 pm by MildMan



 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 01:57 pm
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Texas Defender
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Mildman-

   We'll have to disagree once again over my use of the word: "Installed."

   I have already showed you the source that says that Mr. Lincoln's objective was to ESTABLISH (My caps) "Loyal" governments in each of the border states.

   I have already showed you the source that says that Mr. Lincoln always gave priority to PLACING (My caps) loyal men in control of each state government. In fact, in your posting #63 you even use the word: "Install" when you state that Mr. Lincoln's priority was to INSTALL (My caps) loyal Union men.

(EDITING: Mildman has edited his Post #63 to remove his own use of the word: "Install" ).

   My source shows how General Banks bragged about making Maryland a : "Loyal" state by replacing those local and state officials considered to be disloyal and: "Assigning" loyal men to their duties. Those : "Replaced" (And in some cases imprisoned) included properly elected officials of the city of Baltimore, as well as members of the state legislature.

   Wherever the Union Army held sway, military officers as well as: "Loyal" local and state officials could arrest anyone who uttered any word or made any gesture that they considered disloyal. Many thousands of individuals in many states were arrested throughout the war and held without the necessity of making or proving any charges.

   Mr. Lincoln's minions in the border states could control who was placed in local and state government positions and intimidate those elements that might have a tendency to oppose them. Those who selected the: "Loyal" men and those who: "Installed" (My word) them were advancing the objectives of Mr. Lincoln.

Last edited on Thu Sep 19th, 2013 02:07 pm by Texas Defender



 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 02:43 pm
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Brad Watson, Miami
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(reply #64*)

Texas Defender,

"Established" or "installed"? Really?! You find this more important than answering the questions I asked you on "4 score & 7 years ago, our fathers"...? Incredible.


*Lincoln=64=L12+I9+N14+C3+O+L12+N14
Avraham=64=A1+V22+R18+A1+H8+A1+M13

Lincoln was 6'4", reelected in 1864 ('64), and buried in 64 sq. ft. of concrete according to Lincoln video (Richard Dreyfoos narrates [I can't find it])

Last edited on Thu Sep 19th, 2013 03:28 pm by Brad Watson, Miami



 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 03:02 pm
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Brad Watson, Miami-

   I really see no point in trying to have a serious discussion of history with anyone who sees some grand design in a word coming over the TV, or in golf scores. I really see no point in trying to have a serious discussion of history with anyone who sees some grand design in everything done by anyone with the surname Johnson, which is the second most common surname in the United States.

  You might have: "Frazzled" Mildman and induced me to make the mistake of pointing out your historical errors on your: "4 Score" thread, but it pleases me to see that all of the other members of the forum have thus far shown the good sense to ignore your prattle.



 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 03:39 pm
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Brad Watson, Miami
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Texas Defender,

There were no errors in the post, just a couple of words that got tweaked. You completely ignored the revelation of "4 score and 7 years ago, our fathers..." referring to Genasis 16:16. You also completely ignored the Masonic(7,74) Code(4) of GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April: the original Good Friday. You ignored the synchronisms that occurred in real time with my posts and were documented. You obviously believe in randomness and not only ignore proof of the contrary, you mock it as "prattle" and dare to speak for others who have not weighed in one way or the other. Therefore...

You have taken 'the test'. Today is your Judgment Day: you FAILED F.

And you having NOTHING to be proud of "defending Texans'" evil behavior during the Civil War!


c.c.

Last edited on Thu Sep 19th, 2013 03:39 pm by Brad Watson, Miami



 Posted: Thu Sep 19th, 2013 04:20 pm
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Brad Watson, Miami-

   I'm not surprised that you assign yourself the authority to announce when Judgment Day comes for others. If you had lived in the 1850s, you might have made a loyal follower of John Brown.

  I am quite content to have all of the members read your postings on the: "4 score" thread and on this one, as well as my postings, and decide for themselves which of us has gone over the edge.

Last edited on Thu Sep 19th, 2013 04:26 pm by Texas Defender



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 06:35 pm
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MildMan
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Texas Defender,

You are now on the record for refusing to provide evidence to support your own claims. I conclude that Lincoln never INSTALLED any elected officials as you say. You taint Lincolns legacy with such wild fabrications and you diminsh your own credibilty.

And as for Lincoln's "Minions", by posting in the space we agree to show COURTESY AND RESPECT, and that certainly applies to the Civil War soldiers who served their county honorably. HOW DARE YOU CALL THEM MINIONS! Yes, even Union soldiers should be honored. They should be off limits for defamation.

Last edited on Fri Sep 20th, 2013 06:38 pm by MildMan



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 08:03 pm
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Texas Defender
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Mildman-

    You are now on record for refusing to acknowledge evidence already provided on this thread.

    You object to my use of the word: "Install" when it comes to pro-Union governments in the border states. Apparently, you see no relationship to passages in the link I provided to them being ESTABLISHED there, or having them PLACED there. (See my Post #62) Perhaps the word: "Install" is somehow offensive to you.

    Perhaps your objection is trying to say that Mr. Lincoln did not PERSONALLY appoint specific individuals to specific positions. But that possible objection is also addressed in my Post #62 where I stated that Mr. Lincoln did not have to select the : "Loyal men" personally. Thats what he had his subordinates to see to. I doubt that Mr. Lincoln cared who the individuals were, as long as they advanced his policies and suppressed those considered to be disloyal.

    Your apparent contention that my saying that Mr. Lincoln installed pro-Union state governments through his subordinates is a : "Wild fabrication" is absurd. Your contention that saying this somehow: "Taints Lincoln's legacy" is also absurd, as should be clear to anyone who reads the link I provided.

    I am once again providing the link, and inviting other members to read it so that they can decide for themselves who the real fabricator is here.

Abraham Lincoln and the Border States

    As for my use of the word: "Minion," if you had asked for a clarification of how I meant it, I would have provided it to you. Reading from my New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition, the word is described as: "A subordinate official, deputy, or the like." This is how I meant it, but it doesn't surprise me that you choose to take it as meaning: "A servile follower," since you seem always to be looking for a reason to be insulted.

    When it comes to soldiers, there are many historical examples of individuals that I have little respect for. But the idea that I would defame soldiers in general, be they Civil War soldiers on either side (They were all American soldiers to me) or soldiers now is completely ridiculous. I happen to be retired from the U.S. Army myself, and I know a thing or two about leaders and subordinates. I would be surprised if you served at all.

    Mildman, as usual, you are way off base ( If not in high orbit like another poster on this thread). I wish no more exchanges with you on this forum. Do me a favor and try: "Just Testing Ideas" on someone else.

Last edited on Fri Sep 20th, 2013 08:21 pm by Texas Defender



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 09:05 pm
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MildMan
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Definition CIVILITY: " formal politeness and courtesy in behavior or speech. ex. 

I hope we can treat each other with civility and respect”

Defintion LACK OF CIVILITY: Communications by Texas Defender to those with whom he disagrees.

Definition TOTAL LACK OF CIVILITY: "Suprised if you served at all." HOW DARE YOU!

Last edited on Fri Sep 20th, 2013 09:06 pm by MildMan



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 09:24 pm
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Mildman-

   You just can't resist continuing with this, can you?

   You're a fine one to talk about: "Civility and respect." I don't see that in your recent postings on this thread.

   You're a fine one to talk about: "Civility and respect" when you yourself were admonished by javal for your: "Over the top" inflammatory rhetoric on this thread:

Outlaw Union Generals - Other People of the Civil War - The Participants of th

   All you have done is proven that your apologies of a few weks ago were insincere. Perhaps you should study the definition of another word:

HYPOCRISY n.    A pretending to be what one is not, or to feel what one does not feel; esp. a pretense of virtue, piety, etc.

   As for my guess that you never served in the military based on your previous postings, I'm not surprised that you also took that as an insult. Was I wrong?



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 09:26 pm
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MildMan
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Texas Defender

Please answer this question.

If a person saw you in uniform and proclaimed that you were a "minion" of President Bush, would you consider that a compliment, and insult or neither?



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 09:49 pm
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AGAIN   ????

   To answer your question- it would depend on how it was meant. If I wasn't sure how the person meant it, I would ask for clarification, before flying off the handle and taking offense.



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:19 pm
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MildMan
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Nope no more on this topic.

You addressed my point/question in an earlier post. You clarified that Lincoln never "personally" installed officials. That is good enough. I agree that he established a general policy to mute the voice and roles of those who were in open rebellion with the United States government.

I will try in the future not to be offended by your style of communications.

Last edited on Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:20 pm by MildMan



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:26 pm
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Mildman-

   Even better would be to try to pretend that I don't exist. Don't respond to any of my postings, or refer to them. Don't mention my name or refer to it. Employ the : "Ignore Member" feature. (Something I have never ever done in more than 6 1/2 years on this forum).

   Agree to this and I'll extend the same: "Courtesy and respect" to you.



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:42 pm
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MildMan
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Hmmm, that might help. I won't post to you anymore, but its hard not to mention an interesting topic that might be in your post. Your posts are very interesting and I appreciate the links you provide.

If I expressed myself in the following way would it have been different for you?

"I am not sure I agree with "install" as implies a very active or directive role. I have not read that Lincoln directed the placement of officials in offices reserved for elected officials. However he certainly established a policy to mute the voices of those in open rebellion to the US Government.”

I am thinking that if I modify my style it would be less combative to you.



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:48 pm
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Mildman-

   Apparently, I'll have to settle for less than I hoped for, but that is often the situation in life.

   As for the: "Install" fiasco, you could have posted: "Do you mean that Mr. Lincoln PERSONALLY selected state officials to preside over the state governments of the border states?"

   My response would have been: "No, he trusted his subordinates to do that. He really didn't care who the officials were as long as they implemented his policies and suppressed those considered to be: "Disloyal."

   See how easily the question could have been resolved without charges of me making: "Wild fabrications" or: "Tainting Lincoln's legacy."

Last edited on Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:52 pm by Texas Defender



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:49 pm
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MildMan
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Nah,

After rereading my post, It looks like I was pretty careful at first.



 Posted: Fri Sep 20th, 2013 10:55 pm
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Mildman-

  Okay, I will settle for you not posting to me and I will not post to you. Hopefully, that will be enough of a mutual avoidance.



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