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| Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:00 am |
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1st Post |
Wrap10
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Hi folks,
Here's something that has intrigued me for a while. After the war ended, as I remember the story, someone - I think it may have been a reporter, but I can't recall for sure - asked Lee who he thought his best opponent was during the war.
Lee's answer - "McClellan. Without Question."
I'm going on memory, but that's how I recall it.
Two things about that answer that I've always wondered about. First, why McClellan? And second, why did the 'interviewer' not ask that very obvious follow-up question, as he apparently failed to do? Or if he did, he did not leave a record of Lee's answer, or I've not heard of it.
I've thought about it some and I have a theory of sorts as to why I think Lee chose McClellan, but on the face of it, it does seem like a surprising answer. And it has a sense of finality about it, as if it's not even open for debate. "Without question" doesn't leave much wiggle-room. So my question is, why do you think he chose McClellan as the best commander he faced during the war? I'd like to hear what everyone thinks.
Perry
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 12:17 am |
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2nd Post |
The Iron Duke
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I remember reading this in one of Stephen Sears's books. I've always been curious about the source for that statement.
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"Cleburne is here!" meant that all was well. -Daniel Harvey Hill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 01:40 am |
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3rd Post |
Wrap10
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I'd have to look it up to make sure. I just can't remember who the source was. If you're wondering about the accuracy of the quote - whether Lee actually said such a thing - you're not alone. I've wondered about that as well. But if it was simply made up out of thin air for some reason, I can't see why except as a possible shot at Grant. We'd need to know more about the person who quoted Lee.
That said, I suspect that Lee did give that answer, although I can't prove it. But I've wondered about it, and why he would have chosen McClellan. If you think about the possible choices, you've got a total of six - McClellan, Pope, Burnside, Hooker, Meade, and Grant. Of those, you can immediately eliminate Pope, Burnside, and Hooker. Lee dispatched each of them in a single battle, and there's no way he would have picked one of them as his best opponent. So that leaves McClellan, Meade, and Grant. He only faced Meade in one stand-up battle, and although he lost, I suspect he felt that loss was due more to his own mistakes than anything Meade did. Plus, Meade did not appear very eager to engage Lee in battle in the months after Gettysburg, even when he had the chance.
So that really only leaves McClellan and Grant. Of those two, only one of them was ever able to impose his will on Lee, force him onto the permanent defensive, and finally force his surrender. Yet Lee picked the other commander as his best opponent in the war. If we are to believe the quote. The question is, why? And would anyone here also pick McClellan as Lee's best opponent?
Perry
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 01:52 am |
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The Iron Duke
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EP Alexander said that Hooker's plan at Chancellorsville was the best the Union army in the east ever devised.
And yes I do question the truthfulness of that supposed statement by Lee.
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"Cleburne is here!" meant that all was well. -Daniel Harvey Hill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 03:14 am |
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5th Post |
Wrap10
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Good point about Alexander, although I don't think it would have caused Lee to call Hooker his best opponent.
Have you ever come across another quote attributed to Lee about Grant, where he supposedly says he had carefully researched military history going back through the ages, and had never found Grant's equal as a commander?
Perry
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 03:47 am |
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The Iron Duke
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Yes I've seen that quote about Grant and I think that one has some truth in it. The reason I think that is because when AP Hill was denouncing Grant as a butcher Lee said back to him, "I think Grant has managed his affairs pretty well up to the present time." Last edited on Wed Aug 27th, 2008 03:47 am by The Iron Duke
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"Cleburne is here!" meant that all was well. -Daniel Harvey Hill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 12:52 am |
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Wrap10
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Well, I guess we're on opposite ends here. I'm more inclined to believe the quote about McClellan, and less inclined to believe the one about Grant. Keyboards at 20 paces? 
Perry
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 02:14 am |
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The Iron Duke
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Why do you believe the McClellan quote?
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 12:35 pm |
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Wrap10
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I'm not certain that either quote is authentic, but if one of them is, I'm more inclined to believe it was the quote about McClellan. Something about it just sounds more believable to me.
For instance, why would Lee want to take the time to search through history to find a commander he felt was the equal of Grant? Does it really make sense that he would have done this? And when did he do so? He only lived for five years after the war, and most of that was spent as president of a college that occupied a good bit of his time and attention.
I wish I could find the exact quote as it is rather extensive, but I couldn't find it last night. Same luck I've had with trying to find that Stacy Allen essay on Wallace. But as I understand it, the quote attributed to Lee about Grant was written down, as opposed to the verbal comment about McClellan. So if Lee did write that, there should be some record of it, or at least must have been at one time.
The first time I came across it was on the dust-jacket of a book about Grant, but the author gave no information about the quote inside the book, oddly enough. I still have the book, but the dust-jacket has long since disappeared.
Perry
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 04:37 pm |
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10th Post |
The Iron Duke
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Well I'm sure Lee studied great generals in his younger years. It could be that the person who wrote down the quote changed Lee's words around.
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"Cleburne is here!" meant that all was well. -Daniel Harvey Hill
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 03:29 pm |
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5fish
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I have heard this waht Lee said about "McClellan without question"
I heard that Lee said of Grant "I would have done same"
I have never been able to track either back to their source.
It hard to believe McClellan except his plan for defeating and capturing Richmond was more ingenious then Grant's "I will hit and hit until you fall".
I do not know or can find an answer for Warp10...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 03:36 pm |
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12th Post |
Wrap10
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It's actually "Wrap10." Bowling term. But Warp10 isn't bad either. Sounds like a really fast starship.
I think there was more to Grant's Overland Campaign than just "hit until you fall." But I'll save that for another day.
I'm just more inclined to think Lee's quote about McClellan is closer to what he really thought. Perhaps not, but the quote attributed to Lee about Grant just sounds off to me. I wish I could find the darn thing. I remember it being in two parts, as it were. I remember the first part sounding fairly believable. But the second part, where he talks about carefully searching through history for Grant's equal as a commander...I just don't see him doing that. It makes no sense to me.
Perry
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21st, 2009 11:51 am |
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Kentucky_Orphan
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I agree with Wrap10 that I believe Lee's quote about Mac, and dismiss outright the quote about Grant. Of course, this is simply my opinion, but the qhote about Mac is much more in line with what I know of Lee and his character than the quote about Grant:
While Lee did indeed come to the defense of Grant when many others in the Southern command dismissed him as only a butcher, Lee also is attributed with another quote-when asked who he thought the greatest general of the war was, he responded that it was a man whom he had not met, his name is Forrest. Even if this quote is fictitional-which indeed it can be argued as so, other evidence, including the meeting of the two postwar, would indicate that Lee would never say anthing of the sort about his old adversary-not to mention the absurdity of the statement itself. Grant, while a fine General, is by no means the greatest general in history-I don't believe even his fiercest proponent would argue such, and Lee certainly was not that. So Lee dismisses his idols-Washington in character and accomplishment, Napoleon in the military art, along with Hannibal, Ceasar, Alexander, Wellington, etc-in favor of Grant? I don't buy it.
Last edited on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 11:53 am by Kentucky_Orphan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21st, 2009 04:17 pm |
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14th Post |
The Iron Duke
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I take that quote about Forrest with a grain of salt.
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"Cleburne is here!" meant that all was well. -Daniel Harvey Hill
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Keogh
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Despite his known impatience (or more so, his advisor's) with McClellan, particularly post-Antietam, Lincoln was also an admirer of 'Little Mac'-
"Well, Stoddard, for organizing an army, for preparing an army for the field or for fighting a defensive campaign, I will back General McClellan against any general of modern times—I don't know but of ancient times also."
President Lincoln to his assistant William O. Stoddard (William O. Stoddard, Lincoln's Third Secretary, p. 160.)
However, he did finish the converstaion by saying "But I begin to feel as if he would never get ready to fight!"
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