Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > Other Civil War Talk > Confederate Flag removed from Civil War display at local high school


Confederate Flag removed from Civil War display at local high school - Other Civil War Talk - Civil War Talk - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1 Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 08:22 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
21st Post
Albert Sailhorst
Member


Joined: Mon Sep 12th, 2005
Location: Aledo, Illinois USA
Posts: 555
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Javal,

I don't mind a difference of opinion at all, difference of opinion causes growth.

What I do mind is being labeled a racist in the implication that the CBF AWAYS was racist, which implies racists fought under it. I didn't say if you fly it, you're racist" I posed a question asking IF a person flies it at a reenactment, are they racist.

By the way, thanks for inviting me to cancel. I thought I was civil in my posts, my appolgies if I didn't coma across that way.



 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 08:31 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
22nd Post
javal1
Grumpy Geezer


Joined: Thu Sep 1st, 2005
Location: Tennessee USA
Posts: 1503
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Albert,

I was not "inviting" you to cancel! I was trying to talk you out of it, due to your writing "Sadly, I am a step away from canceling my account. I come here to learn, not be insulted and have it implied that I am, or all Southerners are/were racist."

And by the way, people flying it at reenactments are most certainly not racist. I even wrote an editorial once saying that. The flag belongs at Civil War events. The flag belongs at museums. And I also don't equate the flag with the motivations of the men who fought under it. I equate it with the government perhaps, but that's wholly different than the men fighting.



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 09:22 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
25th Post
Texas Defender
Member


Joined: Sat Jan 27th, 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 920
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Bama46-

  You are indeed correct that many slaveholders were black. The source below gives the 1860 numbers as about 3000 black slaveholders owning about 20000 slaves. I haven't personally verified the numbers in the 1860 Census, but if I recall correctly, in additition, the Five Civilized Tribes owned over 7000 slaves in the Indian Territory.

 

Undergraduate Research Journal for the Human Sciences

 

 

 

 

 



 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 12:08 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
26th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Golly. Rent a movie ahd heat up a pizza and there's a week's worth of posts to catch up on.

I was going to come back in response to our resident Puke in that the ultimate decision belongs with the chief administrator of that school. We can't assume he or she folded in the face of someone's offense. He/she thought it best for whatever reason he/she though best for the school.

If this were my school, I'd go down and have a chat. It is not, so it's NONE OF MY DAMNED BUSINESS!

ole



 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 12:24 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
27th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Back to the CBF and Cookie.

As a symbol of the valiant man who fought under it, I have nothing but reverence. Beyond that, it has become an insult to many people. Can't either change or ignore that. It is what it has become.

It's a long, long road to bring the CBF back to what it should be. I don't expect that to happen at anytime, let alone soon. It is too late.

ole



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 03:40 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
29th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

The interesting thanig with that argument is that damn near onone outside the CW community has a clue ehat the 1st national was/is..... I fly a 1st national on my vehicle and people ask me all the time what is is. When I reply,.. "the stars n bars"... they think I am crazy... everyone knows the stars n bars is the "confederate" flag

Ed. I can't help you there. It's not my flag of choice. I'll go along with the idea of what you think it means. And I'll tell people that it honors soldiers. But I ain't gonna fly it over my house. Exactly because no one knows what you and I think it means. I don't have time to explain to or shoot at the drive-bys.

ole



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 04:03 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
31st Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

so how do you resolve the dichotomy... you have reverence for the men who fought under it...so it is honorable...yet you believe it is an insult to many people.. so by inference it is dishonorable...
Have to play a bit with this one, as well. I had nothing to do with its acquired insult. Its use by dishonorable people has nothing to do with me. There is no dichotomy. You and I and a whole bunch of other students of the wo-ah can see the CBF and the grunts who carried it proudly We are a minority. A small minority. A very small minority. A very, very small minority.

So long as that flag, square or rectangular, flies over Johnnie Reb, I will take off my hat or observe a moment of contemplative silence. Anywhere else is an affront to the men who fought under it.

ole



 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 04:14 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
32nd Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

so tell me again how I am a racist because I honor the CBF as well as the 1st, 2nd and 3rd nationals...much less the Bonnie Blue.

It's called politics, Ed. To borrow from another poster, poly in latin means many; ticks are bloodsucking arachnids. They go wih the flow and you're swimming upstream.

You want to run against Blago. I'll vote for you.

ole



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 04:24 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
34th Post
Kentucky_Orphan
Member


Joined: Wed Dec 20th, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 125
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Perception is reality. The older I get the more I recognize the truth in this. It is remarkable the amount of ignorance we Americans seem to possess in regards to any of our own history. I for one cannot see how showing a flag in a display about the civil war could in any way be offensive, but that is my take on the issue, but this high schooler apparently feels differently.

It always amuses me this politically correct outlook on the world. If you are going to remove the confederate flag, then you sure as hell better remove the AMERICAN flag as well. The north and lincoln emancipators? Bah, if it was economically expedient for that region than the north would have continued with that peculiar institution just as long as the south did.  When you get done with that, better start teaching how washington and our other so called for-fathers were racist slave owners and remove their likeness from currency, their monuments, etc, etc, etc. Follow the logic train onward untill everything remotely offensive in any plausible, or implausible, way is removed once and for all.  When we are finsihed we will have sufficiently white-washed our history to a satisfactory level I think.

Thats my two cents, if the school wants to remove the flag so be it. Just be aware of the counter-argument is all I ask, and to read up on your history to a point at which you will be able to make reasonable conclusions...

 



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 04:38 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
37th Post
Kentucky_Orphan
Member


Joined: Wed Dec 20th, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 125
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

To varying degrees yes, but then economics could be said to be the basis of every decision, every type of conflict the human species is involved in, not just war...



 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 04:49 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
38th Post
PvtClewell
Member


Joined: Wed Jun 13th, 2007
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 420
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I'm a little bit confused here. I thought the Confederate battle flag was precisely that — a flag used in battle. Wasn't it used by regiments to help dress and guide their lines during the smoke and fog of battle? Isn't that why a regiment's unit number and battle honors are usually sewn into them? Somebody help me on this. Am I think of a different flag? The Museum of the Confederacy has tens, if not more, of unit battle flags in storage when they're not on display.

I understand what the CBF has sorrowfully become symbolic of now, but wasn't it originally a rallying point for soldiers in a line of battle? I don't think it was meant to symbolize anything — not slavery, not states rights — other than this is where your unit is if you get lost while attacking up Little Round Top.

Somehow, the CBF became something else after the war, and I suspect the Lost Cause mythology had a lot do do with it. Somebody here said the winners get to write the history, but that's not always true. The Lost Cause took on a life of its own, and for the longest time, the LC advocates were writing the history and it sometimes still persists. The CBF, I think, became the banner for the LC, and then sadly, too easily, mutated into other things.



 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 05:01 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
39th Post
Kentucky_Orphan
Member


Joined: Wed Dec 20th, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 125
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

The mass media is dominantly northern Pvt, and so the mesage people get is from that view, much the same as how you mention the lost causers of the past. The history of the CBF is as a battle flag during the war. It was adopted because the first national flag of the confederate government looked too much like the US flag on a smoky battlefield. 

The confederate battle flag is certainly offensive to some, and hate mongerers do still use it. That is how people view the flag today, in this negative context without the knowledge of the flags past. Not saying the knowledge would temper those views, or even that it should, but the lack of understanding of the flag and the civil war in general is alarming. 



 Posted: Sat Oct 6th, 2007 05:52 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
40th Post
booklover
Member


Joined: Sat Jun 23rd, 2007
Location:  
Posts: 222
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

First let me say that I should never write anything on the fly. Albert, if for a moment it sounded like I was calling you a racist, I apologize. As I stated earlier I don't know you at all to be able to make such a judgment, nor would I presume to say such a thing without any evidence (and from your posts, I don't see any). That said, let me try to answer the posts as I promised to do.

First, to Bama46.

Whether racism is a 20th or 21st century notion that never existed in the 19th century is begging the question. We use the term racism today to mean what happened then--the idealogical notion that blacks were inferior to whites and therefore whites had the power to hold them in subjugation and, as Roger Taney put it, that blacks have no legal rights that any white man was bound to respect. Whether it was called racism or prejudice or whatever, to me at least, is irrelevant to the argument as to what Confederate symbols meant then and what they mean today.

As to the winner writing the history, that is always the argument of those who can't seem to get their views accepted by the general population. There exists a wide body of "history" written by the losing side in this case. It's called the Lost Cause and its views are very prevalent among several different people (sadly enough).

OK, now to Albert.
Reenactors have always fascinated me, simply because no war that America fought except the Civil War has people who want to relive it in this way. No one goes to a re-fighting of the Battle of the Bulge nor do they want to re-fight the Vietnam War. Yet because the Civil War involved only Americans, and because we choose to remember it in a certain way, we have battles probably every weekend of the year. To me this is harmless enough. But I can see why those who portray Confederate soldiers have to argue that slavery wasn't the cause but rather it was state's rights. No one will argue that fighting for state's rights was wrong. But the war, in my opinion, was not about state's rights. State's rights for what? It was about the South's fear that Abraham Lincoln and other Republicans would do what the abolitionists wanted and take their slaves away. You are absolutely right, Albert, that the majority of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves. However, to say that they weren't fighting to keep that system alive is, in my opinion, wrong. Do you honestly believe that if the Southern states had achieved their independence then slavery would have been abandoned? Southern independence would have done to slavery what the invention of the cotton gin did--make it grow unimaginably. The symbols of that nation--yes, indeed all symbols of that nation--represented only one thing--the perpetuation of slavery. You can look at it as a heritage thing, and no amount of discussion from me will change your mind. I too own a Confederate flag, but I don't fly it. I keep it as a reminder of what I never want to see happen in my country again.

Albert, I don't think in any way, shape or form you are a racist. But I also don't think your flags are innocent symbols either. They are looked upon by the ancestors of people who were enslaved by Southern men as symbols of oppression and, yes, by some as symbols of hate. Whether they have been bastardized by others is another argument. As I said earlier, I don't see that showing a Confederate flag to school students is wrong, as long as it's done in such a way as to not promote what I feel it stands for. You will disagree with me, and that's fine. I respect your opinion. I also hope you won't stop coming here and participating in a free form discussion. That's the only way knowledge and understanding will ever come about. Again, if I insulted you, I apologize.

Best
Rob



 Current time is 09:28 pmPage:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Talk > Other Civil War Talk > Confederate Flag removed from Civil War display at local high school
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.4348 seconds (9% database + 91% PHP). 32 queries executed.