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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 02:35 am |
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1st Post |
Cookie12NJCoD
Guest
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Not sure where this actually fits but I wanted to get it out there and, hopefully, generate some good old fashioned email bombardment on the matter. A local paper recently ran a story about a high school in our county that removed a replica Confederate Battle flag from a Civil War display case because one 19 year old student found it offensive. http://www.nj. com/news/ gloucester/ local/index. ssf?/base/ news-7/119139725 211100.xml&coll=8
I and members of my unit have emailed the Superintendant of Schools in Franklin Township here in Gloucester County NJ of our outrage over this decision. We would like to have as many historians, reenactors and other folks also send an email to this gentleman expressing overall disappointment over this decision. Send to Superintendent Frank Borelli at fborelli@delsea.k12.nj.us
(a 19 year old still in high school???) Anyway, here is my two cents worth. Any additional voices to our chorus would be appreciated.
I am terribly disturbed by your decision to remove the Confederate flag from the Civil War display at a local high school. This sets a very poor precedent and equally poor example to the young people you are supposed to be educating. By removing that flag you are making a consious decision to change the face of history. That flag represented the Confederate States of America. It was a symbol of their sovereignty long before it, unfortunately, became a symbol of racism in America. It represented hundreds of thousands of southern soldiers who fought and died in a terrible war that defined who we became as a nation. It cannot and must not be "removed" from our history lessons or our memory. The Civil War was a terrible time for our country but it happened. It's history. It should not be changed because some people are "offended" by it. Historic events will always offend someone. What happens next? Do we drop all reference to the holocaust because it offends those who chose to not believe in it? Do we forsake the teaching of Algebra and Geometry because they are products of the Muslim world back when most Europeans were illiterate and now we are offended by Muslims after 9-11?
Being offended by the Confederate Flag is a result of being ignorant of it's history. Perhaps instead of supporting and enabling this uneducated and purely emotional reaction to a part of history your school district should spend a little more time actually TEACHING about this time period with ACCURACY. Most school curriculum's spend all of 3 days on the subject. No wonder this flag is misunderstood. It is unfortunate that today this flag has been adopted by a subculture that promotes racism but that is not what it originally stood for. Here's another tidbit, the now famous Nazi symbol - the swastika - has for centuries been a religious symbol and can be found on many ancient artifacts. Because it is now so strongly associated with Hitler and the Nazi's no one remembers the fact that it has its roots in religion.
I am a Civil War reenactor. I portray a female civilian from the north. I have no love for slavery or what the south tried to do in order to keep their "peculiar" way of life. I've no stomach for the KKK or any racist organization and that goes both ways including non-whites who are racist against them. But what I find more disgraceful is the willfull exclusion of a legitimate part of our history because "someone" finds it offensive. You cannot change history. You should not whitewash it either. Otherwise how will we learn from those mistakes and grow?
I strongly urge you to replace the flag and educate this person as to it's true meaning. If he still finds it offensive, I strongly suggest he avoid the display but please don't screw up our history for the rest of us.
Lorraine Clementi
Civilian Reenactor/Living Historian
12th NJ Co D
Mullica Hill, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 06:20 am |
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2nd Post |
ole
Member
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If the CBF represents that grubby little bastard that fought until the end for whatever the hell he fought for, the CBF has honor. Beyond that, it has no place.
ole
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 10:52 am |
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3rd Post |
Cookie12NJCoD
Guest
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ole wrote: If the CBF represents that grubby little bastard that fought until the end for whatever the hell he fought for, the CBF has honor. Beyond that, it has no place.
ole
Ole,
Forgive me but can you clarify what you mean by this? I'm not sure I understand your meaning. Are you saying the CBF should NOT be represented in a Civil War display? I just believe that to represent artifacts from only one side of a two sided conflict renders the display meaningless. If it was to represent only the Federal side then...ok.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 01:07 pm |
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4th Post |
javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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It really depends on the context of the display. If it was in fact merely to educate (i.e.- this is what the flag of the Confederacy looked like), then I have no problem with that. If, on the other hand, it was there to "honor" and be a symbol with an underlying political statement, then it has no place in a school. Having said that, there's many things in Lorraine's letter I totally disagree with, including:
"It was a symbol of their sovereignty long before it, unfortunately, became a symbol of racism in America."
"Being offended by the Confederate Flag is a result of being ignorant of it's history. "
"It is unfortunate that today this flag has been adopted by a subculture that promotes racism but that is not what it originally stood for."
I find all these things incorrect for various reasons stated on other threads.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 01:43 pm |
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5th Post |
Bama46
Guest
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javal, et al
As i understand the issue, this is a historical CW display, not someone wearing a "tee shirt"... regardless of our feelings about the battleflag, I revere it..you despise it...both are entitled to our opinions. and that is just what they are...opinions. Common courtesy says I should not throw something that offends you in your face, but courtesy is sometimes in short supply.
The thing that disturbs me is the insistance that if someone is offended, the object of offense must be immediately removed. Do we have a right to never be offended? Are we to remove the flag from all the museums because it offends? How about the battlefields?
Where is this going to end.....
Ed
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 02:31 pm |
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6th Post |
Cookie12NJCoD
Guest
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I'm not saying we need to revere the CBF. I do, however, believe that when artifacts from a particular subject, in this case the American Civil War, are on display they should represent both sides. Otherwise the display is only telling half the story. And regardless of what our current feelings are about what happened and why we fought, these things are a part of history. That cannot be changed. To hide it from view because it "offends" is a disservice to everyone. It's like saying, "Oh, I don't like that part of history so let's just tuck it away somewhere and forget about it."
Anyway, as Ed implied at the end of his previous post, I am more disturbed about the penchant to just immediately cave in and remove stuff from view whenever someone is "offended". Where will it end? As John Adams said during the debate over the Declaration of Independence, "They won't be satisfied until they remove one of the "f"s from Jefferson's name."
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 03:15 pm |
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7th Post |
HankC
Member
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Cookie,
You may be better off to display 'concern' rather than 'outrage' and have an alternative proposal ready.
Over-the-top reactions to school officials actions, whose primary concerns are education AND safety (and have enough on the their plate already, won't help your position...
HankC
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 03:31 pm |
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8th Post |
Bama46
Guest
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Cookie,
I believe you and I agree on most of your last post. History is, or should be, a record of what happened, rather than what we wished had happened. That said, pure history has probably never been recorded by anyone.
I am disturbed by people who would wear a tee shirt with the battleflag on it for its shock value. A seemingly favorite tactic of teens who love to shock... but I am equally distrubed by those who seemingly delight in finding something to be offended by so as to get a controversy started or generate some publicity for themselves. Two sides of exactly the same coin. I think that is happening here.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 04:32 pm |
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9th Post |
booklover
Member
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From a broader perspective, it seems that some people long for a day that never was, i.e., when history was "pure" and taught "like it should have been" in the public schools. Back when I was in school, teaching "pure" history meant that America could do no wrong and was more an exercise in nationalist propaganda than trying to show what really happened. It wasn't until I reached college that I realized there was a little of both in it. America did some really great things in its past but it also committed some really horrible acts.
I'm not in favor of whitewashing the past from either side. No matter how much people don't want to admit it, the CBF was, is and always will be a symbol of southern racism. That said, southern racism was a part of our history and should never be downplayed because the mere mention of it offends someone, on either side. To show a student what that symbol was is not wrong. To prompt discussion on whether it was indeed a symbol of southern racism is not wrong. To let all sides speak out on this issue is not wrong. To hold on to some fantastical past where history used to be taught "pure" and "right" is wrong and always will be. Political correctness is alive and well on both sides.
Best
Rob
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Bama46
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Booklover,
well said...for the most part...
I agree that "pure History" is never right. I also know the winner always gets to write the history, and being humans, that history is always flawed. Did the CBF ALWAYS stand for southern racism? I am not so sure. Why was the battleflag used? Who used it during the war? What buildings did it adorn? Was it ever an official flag adopted by the CSA or was it a soldier's flag?.... Specifically the flag of the ANV. Was racism even a recognized concept during the war era, or are we attributing a 20th/21st concept to a 19th century event?
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Albert Sailhorst
Member
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To those who say the CBF "was and always has been" a symbol of racism, I must disagree.
During the Civil War, that flag did NOT stand for, nor mean, "I hate black people", i.e, racist sentiment. To think that it did betwen 1861-1865, is a gross mis-interpretation of history and Southern sentiment. I personally take offense from people who accuse my Southern ancestors, Southern soldiers, as ALL being racist.
Since the war, various organizations and individuals have corrupted it to the point that it is synonymous with hate. It appears that those hate-mongers have become historical revisionists, in that they've taken away the meaning and replaced it with a vile theory promoting racism.
Please, do not offend me and my forefathers by shoving down my throat that the CBF "was" always a symbol of racism. Am I a racist because I reenact in a Confederate artillery unit, flying our battery flag behind us? Or, in that capacity, am I a teacher? If I am a teacher, waving the CBF, am I teaching/promoting racism? In this context, does the CBF ALWAYS represent racism? If not, then to generalize by saying the CBF always was and is racist, is dead wrong.
Slavery existed under the United States flag first, and longer, than it did under the CBF during the war for Southern Independance.
That's my two cents....
Albert Sailhorst
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booklover
Member
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I have to leave for work right now, but as I am off this weekend (and will have some more time) I will be happy to answer both posts.
I will say this Albert, not knowing you I cannot say (and would never presume) that you are a racist. However, what that symbol stood for in 1861 and what it stands for today are one in the same. Again, I will answer in greater detail later (although this is one of those arguments where neither side will change the other's mind).
Best
Rob
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Albert Sailhorst
Member
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Rob,
In 1861-1865, it stood for the rights of state's vs. the rights af Federal government. That has always been a Constitutional issue, utill the Civil War. Slavery in America was not racially motivated, it was economically motivated.
Today, hate groups have assinged to the CBF racial/hatred definitions.
Again, IF it stands for racism, AND I wave it at a reenactment, what am I promoting?
It appears that no minds will be changed, but I damn sure hate for someone to tell me that the CBF meant racism and hatred to the soldiers that fought under it. There were plenty of Southern soldiers who didn't own slaves and didn't care one way or another if slavery existed or not, nor did they hate blacks. Don't make those Southern soldiers into Neo-Nazis. The one's that are the Neo-Nazis are the ones who've altered the flag for their own purposes.
To say that what it stood for in 1861 and what it stands for today is to call me a racist for waving it and having it hang in my home. I take great offense to that. To that end, perhaps the CBF means certain things to certain people; however, the original intent was not racist nor hate-spreading.
Albert Sailhorst
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Albert Sailhorst
Member
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Just curious, but do the First, Second and Third National flags adopted by the Confederate States represent racism too?
Sheesh, my dander is up and I wish it weren't....I've got a reenactment this weekend, and all I'll be able to think about is how racist my ancestors were and how racist I am.....That ought to ruin my weekend. Thanks......
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javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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"Slavery in America was not racially motivated, it was economically motivated."
Just curious - how many white slaves were there in 1861?
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Texas Defender
Member
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If it had not been beneficial economically to keep slaves, then there wouldn't have been any.
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Albert Sailhorst
Member
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Texas Defender,
Thanks for making my point for me....You said it the way I wanted to say it regarding economics.
The comment about about why weren't there white slaves, in my opinion, is applying 21st century thought to accepted practices/mores of the 19th century.
First, native Africans didn't have the means to resist becomming enslaved, ie, weapons, fighting capability that the whites did.
Second, and today we know better, Africans were seen (in 19th century thought) as ignorant and thus easily enslaved (I'll take flack for that comment, I'm sure, but bear in mind, I said "today we know better").
At one time, there were indentured servants, so yes, white slaves did exist.
Sadly, I am a step away from canceling my account. I come here to learn, not be insulted and have it implied that I am, or all Southerners are/were racist. I'd have expected better from the people here. I'm sure you'll find very few Southerners decided to risk their lives and be killed just to supress a particular race. Personally, I wouldn't die to keep someone in bondage, and I doubt very many others would either. Remember, there was also sentiment among Federal troops after the Emancipation Proclimation, that they weren't fighting to free the slaves; they were fighting to preserve the Union. On the other side of the coin, Confederate troops didn't fight to keep slavery.
I need to go before my weekend is entirely ruined.
I'll be thinking of y'all as the Southern Cross flies behind me this weekend.
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Bama46
Guest
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Javal,
To put anothr spin on it, how many black slave holders were there in 1861?
I do not want anyone to read my posts and take from them the view that I think the CBF stood for racism. Nor do I want anyone to think I believe southern soldiers were racist.
Racism is a concept that I do not believe existed in the mid 19th century. Once again I say that to take a 19th century practice and view it thru the lens of the 20/21st century is to get a skewed view of history. Unfortunatley, this happens all too often.
I hope Booklover will answer the questions I posed a post or so ago.
Ed
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javal1
Grumpy Geezer
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Albert,
First of all, this thread was about the Confederate flag what it represents, and it's place in schools. Surely you didn't expect everyone to agree with you, did you?
You're the only one who said that if you fly it, then you're a racist. Didn't see anyone else make that claim.
There are people who view the flag as a symbol of racism, then and now. I happen to be one of them. There are also those who believe it represents the federal/state chism. You happen to be one of those. The fact that you carry the flag, believing that, doesn't make you a racist. To me, the only racists are those who believe it was a symbol of racism, and carry it because of that. Big, big difference.
If you feel the need to cancel your account because others believe in their opinion as much as you believe in yours, then so be it. IMO, you'd be wrong, and you'd certainly be missed.
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Albert Sailhorst
Member
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Just two more cents to toss in, if I may....Actually, there were SOME black slaveholders in the South....Just now, I don't have a source to quote, but I know there were some.
Y'all have a great weekend!
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