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 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 09:13 pm
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Dixie Girl
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Thanks Joanie I appreciate that. Some of my family have some of these qualites but I got if all. I am willing to assert my opion as I feel needed.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 09:16 pm
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Dixie Girl
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I dont know if it helps any but I dont think your old.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 09:21 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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HA!!...Thanks!......I try to act my age, which, based on the way I act, averages to be about 6 years old!!....Shoot, almost time to leave work and go home......too much playin' at work....maybe I need a computer at home???



 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 09:23 pm
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Dixie Girl
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Yeah you do need a computer. Best invention since indoor plumbing!lol



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 09:25 pm
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younglobo
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Reb.. Very funny article =+++

The South was a genteel aristocracy, filled with Southern charm and civilization, where there was chivalry and honor among gentlemen, as long as you didn’t include the poor farmers and slaves that by far outnumbered the aristocracy (who, in fact, didn’t count them).

Yeah lets go back to the plantation system , as long as im one of the rich plantation owners , not one of the slaves or poor farmers around said plantation .

Everyone seemed to realize that the coming attack was a monumentally bad idea. Longstreet knew it. The field officers knew it. Most of the local wildlife and rocks knew it. But not George Pickett. Even today, this one attack is still looked on by students of history as a perfect example of Southern courage, honor, tenacity, and stupidity.

My thoughts on Pickets charge are finally confirmed :D)(90







 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 09:41 pm
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39th Miss. Walker
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Dixie, we all, at least most of us Southerners, have this somewhat romanticized view of the old South. That's what we were taught.
Unfortunately it really wasn't that way. In addition to much of what Susan had written let me put in a few. As for women's rights, they had none. If they owned property it was usually held in trust for them. When they married the husband then usually controlled all of the property.
Small farms, the women worked the fields alongside their husbands, and children, of both sexes. Once the day was over and the men went to bed you would find the women still up making clothes, spinning cotton etc.
In many areas non property owning men had no vote. You didn't elect your Governor, the legislature did it for you.
Forget death and disease. We all know about that.
Forget the plantation system of aristocrats and slavery. We know about that.
Lets examine your life. Your life is what you want to make it. There are still groups here in the US that live up to the ideals you prescribe to. The Mennonites, Quakers, and others. You have a choice here in the 21st Century. You can throw away the TV and video games. You can live your life as you see fit and still have all of the advantages of this time.
The Old South was essentially a myth. Many aspects of it was they way of the land, but it was a hard fought, hard scrapped life, each and every day.
I hope you find what you are looking for.



 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 10:33 pm
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susansweet
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Scarlett was fiction .  A made up character invented by Margaret Mitchell. 



 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 10:35 pm
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susansweet
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Defender , oops was that a feudain slip!!!   Yes back to the 21st century .  sigh. 

 



 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 11:01 pm
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Johan Steele
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First pardon my bluntness but  Scarlet was a fictional woman.. and a cast iron bitch of a fictional woman.

I'm w/ Albert... I'm not a day past 300 years old damn it!

 

Years ago Eddie Murphy had a comedy sketch about modern (1980's) gangbangers and slavery.  His comments are oddly insightful.  Attitudes change rather abruptly at the first application of a cat of nine tails.

Dixie it is easy to think things were better or easier or whatever in a time period we really don't understand.  Yes I said we don't understand.  Things that the common man or woman of 1860 took for granted are wholly foreign to us today.  Things they did w/ their eyes closed we would have a very difficult time accomplishing.  At my last school visit I asked a bunch of High Schoolers how to dig a hole... something simple?  There is the easy way and the hard way and frankly I don't think any of them could tell me how a spade was used in comparison to a square shovel.  As an example my father has been digging graves by hand for most of forty years and has gone through scores of assistants over the years, including me.  He says he typically has to have a man help him 2-3 times before they start doing it right.

As to people being more moral then than today.  I have two books for you to read: Celia, A Slave and Harriet Jacobs Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl.  If you can read either of those and tell me w/ a straight face that those of the 1860's were of higher morals than today I will do a double backwards flip into the nearest snow bank.

THey weren't simpler times by any means; the average farmer or worker for that matter started well prior to sun up; say 0530 and wasn't finished w/ his work until well after dusk.  Think I'm kidding ask a farmer who remembers farming in the 1940's and many a modern farmer still maintains such a schedule.

There was considerable less time for leisure.  Being outspoken could be done, but it had consequences... some of them involving a switch and a raw backside as a result... being too outspoken could get a woman killed.

Put simply the more things change the more they stay the same.  Life was not easy in the Antebelum South; the reverse was quite true.  Now those wealthy plantation owners could afford to watch their slaves do the work, to a degree.  THere was still quite a lot of management and tasks for them to do.   Even that said they were a minority, a vocal and powerful minority but they in no way represent the average.



 Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 11:22 pm
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susansweet
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Great Post Johan that is what I was trying to say also.  I love the story about the high schoolers digging a hole. 

You have recommended those two books before.  I am going to have to add them to my women's history  library.  There is my Civil War library , my western history library and my women's history library. 

There were strong women in the south and north , but they paid for what they did .  Fanny Kimble , an English Actress wrote a journal about her experiences after she married Butler , the largest slave holder in Georgia.  Her discriptions of living on a plantation are very interesting .   When she divorced him he got the children .  One of the girls sided with her eventually the other never sided with her. 

 Oh dear if you aren't a day over 300 , I hate to think how old that makes me!!!!! 

Susan



 Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 07:20 am
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ole
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I know that after 3 months underwater, I used to really enjoy hanging around with the hoeing-gang. There was this one time in New London when.... oh, nevermind, I just noticed your spelling....:cool:

For goodness sakes, Joe, How would you spell hoeing without getting smacked like Imus? Three month's underwater. Maybe you got a bit close to the reactor?

ole



 Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 01:38 pm
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Albert Sailhorst
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While not a fan of historical movies, such as Gone With the Wind, in the sense that they accurately protray the life of the times in which they were set (by way of example, chage the "background" of Gone With the Wind to that of World War II. The plot and "life-style" remain the same, only the costumes change), I will over-simplify this discussion with the following:

Compare the romanticisized life of the Old South of "Gone With the Wind" to the hardships of daily, average life shown in "Cold Mountain".

As I've posted before, it's easier to remember the "good life" and the good times, than it is to remember the bad times.

I like reenacting because I have fun with my Pards.....we laugh, we joke, we play Horseshoes, we eat, we have a few drinks, shoot a cannon for 30 minutes,  return to goofing around, then go home on Sunday, in August. We don't do this everyday. We don't drill for hours on end in the rain, snow or heat. We don't have to worry about getting fresh water or enough food. We don't have horses that need to be fed, waterd and groomed before we, ourselve, get to eat or rest. We know where the "little blue houses" are. We're not in winter quarters in January, trying to forage firewood with 30,000 other troops.

My point is, it's fun to think we could live back then, because it's the fun that we experience and remember (although I've reenacted under some pretty foul conditions, those conditions were not constant.....I got to go home).



 Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 02:34 pm
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David White
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Interesting conversation.  As one of the old farts on the board, I'll agree with the other old farts.

I think the best case scenario for a woman to "stand up" for herself in the 19th century was to exert influence over her husband or father if he was either a truly loving husband or father, an Ashley Wilkes like wimp or she used her sexual wiles with her husband.  If she tried to "stand up" for herself with the rest of society she would have been slapped down fast and be considered a pariah.

Now Dixie Girl, don't forget that you want to take your e-mail back with you to the 19th century too


(Oh never mind, I see now where you are taking your computer with you too)

 

 

Last edited on Fri Dec 14th, 2007 02:44 pm by David White



 Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 03:14 pm
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Dixie Girl
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I know Scarlet was fiction but that didnt stop her from being strong and inspiring women to do the same



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


 Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 03:57 pm
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susansweet
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Scarlett was strong because Margaret Mitchell wrote her strong.  She wrote the book in the late 1930's .  The movie was released in 1939.  By that time women had the vote , were in the workforce and even in the Presidential cabinet .  She had no influence on the women of the Civil War period . 

You want to talk about strong women at the time of the Civil War , then you would have to talk about Clara Barton, Rose Greenhow. Pheobe Pember , Sally Thompkins , Julia Ward Howe, Harriet Beecher Stowe.Harriet Tubman, Dr.Mary Walker Dr Elizabeth Blackwell ,Dothea Dix, Lucretia Mott , Pauline Cushman, Sojouner Truth, Belle Boyd.  These were strong women not some fictional spoiled rotten vain Southern Belle .

These are women that truely inspired others.  There are many biographies on line and in books about these woman.  Read about them and be inspired .  Not some fictional character . 

You will note I include both women of the north and of the south. 

Susan



 Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 03:49 pm
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Dixie Girl
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I have heard that when people write books their characters are their alter-egos. The characters live out what the writer wants to but cant. Though Scarlet may be fiction and there were real strong women of the CW she can still inspire people. In school I have done book reports on several of these women so I know about most of them. They did amazing things that helped women through the years. They changed the world for women and broke down barriers that otherwise wouldn't have been. I understand completely what you are saying but fictionalized characters can also help change things to.



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War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson


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 Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 04:50 pm
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susansweet
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Ed , thank you that is exactly what I was trying to say.  I love reading fiction as well as nonfiction .  When I was growing up I admired people like Amelia Earhart, Nelly Bly, Anne Frank, Hellen Keller, I read all about them. 

I read fiction too like GWTW but never thought of Scarlett as a role model the way I did these real life women.   Jo March was the closest I got to a fictional character being a "role model"  I always liked her character.  I even did a first person presentation of her 9th grade.  Little Women is my favorite book from Childhood.  But the woman I realized I should admire is not Jo but Louisa May Alcott the author of the book.   I was so thrilled about 6 years ago when I visited her home in Concord Ma.  Yes I bought another copy of Little Women in the Gift shop. 

I also enjoyed four years ago visiting "the dump"  Margaret Mitchells apartment building in Atlanta and the GWTW museum down the street .  yes I bought GWTW at the gift shop.  (shot I bought another copy of Grapes of Wrath at the Steinbeck Museum)

One more word about Scarlett, she just to me now seems to be the model for all those historical fiction books that are ground out every month all with same plot.  She is the role model for the female main character. 

Well back to reading about Civil War. 

Susan



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 Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 09:01 pm
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susansweet
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Bama I taught first grade gifted students for over 20 years and primary grades the whole 34 years I taught school.  You can almost bet on it that when the book orders from the different book clubs were passed out , one of the books the girls would order was any book on Helen Keller.  I would say she was a number one best seller for girls .

The Drum Barracks has an autograph book which has the signatures of three presidents, many generals , a Wild West Person  and a lady. . . . Helen Keller.  When I show the cd we have of the book, (the book is much to fragile to display ) the person that gets the most name recognition is Helen Keller .  Hers is also the only one that is  neatly written.   

Side bar did you know Patty Duke who played Helen on stage in the orginal play and the movie , also played Annie Sullivan to Melissa Gilberts Helen in the tv verision ?

Susan

I am jealous you are so close to her home I would love to visit . 



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