Civil War Interactive Discussion Board Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register


Abraham Lincoln - Abraham Lincoln - The Participants of the War - Mikitary & Civilian - Civil War Interactive Discussion Board
 Moderated by: javal1 Page:    1  2  3  4  5  Next Page Last Page  
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 04:02 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
1st Post
TimK
Member
 

Joined: Thu Apr 10th, 2008
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 311
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I have been out lately - I have have other hobbies and have been in Omaha watching some great college baseball. In any case, some pretty interesting reading since I got back. Being fairly new to the group, I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'll tee it up again.

It seems as though having a level of reverance for President Lincoln opens the door for a certain amount of mockery. Although I would certainly not grant him sainthood, could somebody explain to me why I shouldn't hold Lincoln in high esteem for preserving the Union. I'm not looking for a fight - just a discussion.



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 04:31 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
3rd Post
lifl2003
Member


Joined: Wed Jun 11th, 2008
Location: Massapequa Park, New York USA
Posts: 39
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Wow. I am sure your in for some interesting replies. 

I do hold Lincoln in very high regard.  I agree that he was no saint but in my opinion he did "what he had to do" as commander in chief.

He did somethings that would just not be possible today .  For example suspension of Habeas Corpus.  Could you imagine what the ACLU would have done then?

If only he had been better at selecting Generals earlier in the war.

I never read that book but i will put it on my reading list.

Mike



 Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 04:38 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
4th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Although I would certainly not grant him sainthood, could somebody explain to me why I shouldn't hold Lincoln in high esteem for preserving the Union.
With you on that Tim. The man, in retrospect, made some major booboos and some questionable war-time moves but, without him, this nation would not be what it is today: top o' the world!

We've had the extreme good fortune (providence?) to have had the right people in the right place at the right time. At a particular early crisis, we had Washington, Adams, Madison, Jefferson and many other less-well-knowns who set about designing a new country. Lincoln followed their pattern. What we would be if he hadn't been there is impossible for me to contemplate.

He earned whatever degree of esteem anyone choses to give him. Some can consider him a saint, if they'd like, I prefer to consult history.

ole



 Posted: Wed Jun 18th, 2008 10:18 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
5th Post
TimK
Member
 

Joined: Thu Apr 10th, 2008
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 311
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Ed - I hope you do weigh in. I feel fairly strongly the same way that Mike and ole feel. I don't really like to get into "what ifs", but I probably could be persuaded to believe that it was Divine Intervention that put Lincoln where he was when he was.

I know you probably have a different opinion, and if so, I wouldn't mind hearing it. I wonder if it is because you are in Springfield and sick of the exploitation that occurs with any type of tourist destination.

Again, I'm not interested in starting a fight - but many men have died protecting the right for us to share our opinions in friendly discussions. I would like hearing from you or anyone else that is not enamored with Lincoln, and why.



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 12:38 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
7th Post
Crazy Delawares
Member


Joined: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008
Location: New Jersey USA
Posts: 143
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Everyone being entitled to his/her opinion...I do believe Lincoln was our greatest president. Flaws? Absolutely! Mistakes? So many to count! But, who else in the nation at that time, could've held the Union together, freed all men and still keep our nation strong in the face of the world? Which one of the men running for president in 1860 could've saved the country such an effusion of blood, kept it together and freed the slaves?
He was a man of his time. He also had other familial issues to deal with (as did Jeff. Davis).
All in all, a very interesting man! I guess that's why there are so many books written about him.
An imperfect man...an imperfect president...but, right for his time!



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 01:54 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
9th Post
javal1
Grumpy Geezer


Joined: Thu Sep 1st, 2005
Location: Tennessee USA
Posts: 1503
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Tim -

My first worthless piece of advice would be to never look to others for validation of your beliefs ;). You're educated, you've read the same books others have and reached a conclusion based on that. Trust it. But it does make for interesting discourse.

I'm well past the point where my opinion of Lincoln will change, that being that he deserves the label of a great President. I don't discount all the warts pointed out by others. I do however weigh them against others of Lincoln's time, most particularly Bell, Breckinridge and Douglas.

We often fall into a stereotypical scenario that the North's manpower and resources made the war an inevitable win for the Union. Nonsense. The greatest reserve of assets, when unused or misused means little (and I'll resist modern-day commentary here). So I've always measured Lincoln against the other three candidates he defeated. Would any of them have fought as hard to preserve the Union? IMO, no. Would any of them, even if they were inclined to do so, had the capacity to make the best use of the resources at hand? IMO, no. Would any of them have had the ability to hold a divided country together long enough to complete the task? IMO, no. Would Breckinridge, Bell, or Douglas have the ability to win the war? IMO, no.

As for how many slaves Lincoln freed, I would re-phrase the question. I would ask how many slaves were released from shackles because of the actions of Lincoln. I know what I think, and as much as I respect the opinions of disenters, I'm damn proud to admire him.

 



 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 02:09 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
10th Post
TimK
Member
 

Joined: Thu Apr 10th, 2008
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 311
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I certainly did not want to start this so that anyone would feel like they needed to circle the wagons. And also, when I am part of such a large majority of people that feel a certain way, I need to step back and make sure I'm not a follower waiting in line to drink the Kool Aid. The fact is, I don't care for the myths, nor am I naive enough to think any politician will make all the right choices all the time. I'm sure living in Springfield, it would be hard to find anybody that believed that Lincoln ever broke wind.

Some of Ed's facts I knew, some I need to look into. However, I think that if you are going to make the generalization that Lincoln shot at protesters in New York and that Lincoln shut down newspapers, you must also accept that Lincoln freed the slaves. I suppose the number would be all.

So far, nothing has led me to believe that, no matter what happened before 1860, there could not have been a better president of the United States after 1860.



 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 02:16 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
11th Post
TimK
Member
 

Joined: Thu Apr 10th, 2008
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 311
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Joe - Your advice is certainly not worthless. I suppose because I sit at a computer all day, I am seeking the interesting discourse. Thanks to all for providing this.



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 03:57 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
13th Post
ole
Member


Joined: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006
Location:  
Posts: 2027
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

As this thread was opened in the spirit of civil discussion, I'm outahere!

ole



 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 10:01 am
   PM  Quote  Reply 
14th Post
lifl2003
Member


Joined: Wed Jun 11th, 2008
Location: Massapequa Park, New York USA
Posts: 39
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I don't even own a wagon so I can't circle :D

This is a discussion that could last for eternity. What I find interesting is how the opinion of Lincoln still emanates on your geographical upbringing 150 years later.

It seems we Yanks revere him while our southern brothers simply do not. 

We could argue back and forth about the EP, presidential abuses of power, etc. etc. However the heritage of the opinion holder still appears to reign supreme.

Of course others fit into this category: Nathan Bedford Forest, WT Sherman and to some extent R.E. Lee just to name a few. 

Just my opinion.

That being said I am sure glad I found this forum.  My wife just won't listen to me rant about the CW anymore!! I now have a new outlet. Thank you all!

Off to Gettysburg tomorrow with my kids!! We are biking the field on Saturday.

 



 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 12:13 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
15th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

To me he was a politician, and a good one. He is probably the most villified president in our history. There is more propoganda out there about him than history. Those who hate him exaggerate what he did (ever try to find a list of the 300 papers he shut down? It doesn't exist; IIRC the number is only a half dozen or so.) or he's compared to Davis as the poorer President when Davis and the CS were much harsher on freedom and personal liberty. And on the other hand there are those who revere him, claiming he freed 4 millions from bondage. He didn't, the 13th Amendment did that. But he made the 13th possible. As to sainthood... the only people I see who claim that are those who despise him in an effort to further ridicule.

There is a lot of stuff out there on Lincoln, as much negative as positive. For instance it's possible to read that he was gay, was a phillanderer, was an atheist. It's also possible to read that he single handedly preserved the Union, created heaven etc. Stick around long enough and you'll see all of it and come to your own conclusions.

Mine is that he was a man w/ all the foibles and triumphs that come with being such.



You have chosen to ignore Bama46. click Here to view this post


 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 02:14 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
17th Post
javal1
Grumpy Geezer


Joined: Thu Sep 1st, 2005
Location: Tennessee USA
Posts: 1503
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

I am firmly convinced that the martyrdom began before his body cooled and continues to this day.

But nobody on this board is guilty of that, at least that I've seen. Numerous replies have stated why they like him. None said anything about sainthood. "Martyrdom" of Presidents isn't a new thing, and it still goes on. We're in the middle of one right now with a certain 1980's President. It would be unfair, IMO, to let zealots color your opinion of the object of their zealotry one way or another.



 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 02:50 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
18th Post
j harold 587
Member


Joined: Tue Jun 12th, 2007
Location: Wilmington, Ohio USA
Posts: 166
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

Right on Joe. We all need to realize that we will not change long held personal beleifs. We do need to allow a fair and reasonable exchange of ideas. This forum is a place to allow that exchange and must be allowed to continue in a free and non-accusatory manner.

It is difficult to view 19th century actions in a 21st century mind set. We should always view those actions through (to the best of our ability) the conventional understanding at that time. 

If we do not agree thats ok, but you may have an idea or thought to research or a perspective you had not previouly examined.  

On martyerd presidents. How much really meaningfull civil rights legislation was passed under JFK? LBJ is seldom given the credit for the reforms passed on his watch. He also was not a perfect human, none of us are.

Lincoln was not a saint. Neither was R.E. Lee, Thomas Jackson, or U.S. Grant. They were men who made brilliant decesions, and foolish decesions that brought our history to where it is today. The end does not justify the means, but it may be the only option at the time.



 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 02:52 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
19th Post
Johan Steele
Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352


Joined: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006
Location: South Of The North 40, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1065
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

If the claim of 300 is a gross exaggeration, what else is? It makes one start to question what they think they know. I know it made me start to do so. Was he perfect? A far cry from it, was he better than his contemporaries or at least no worse? Absolutely. Is he worthy of sainthood? No. Does he deserve to have all kinds of lies and misrepresentations made about him (both pro & con) so he can no longer be viewed objectively? No.

Most who despise him look at him in a vacum; the reality is compared to what Davis and the CS govt did to it's own people he's an outright angel.

He was a politician, so was Davis. I can stomach one, but the other (In my view commited gross treason) I can't.



 Posted: Thu Jun 19th, 2008 03:57 pm
   PM  Quote  Reply 
20th Post
Texas Defender
Member


Joined: Sat Jan 27th, 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 920
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 

  back to top

  I resisted setting foot on this thread for awhile, but an accumulation of postings has now made me, to use Pemberton's words:"Compelled to appear in print."

Lifl2003-

  I must dispute your geographic theory which states that your origin of upbringing determines your level of esteem for Mr. Lincoln. I am a Texan by choice (for a few decades now). But I was born and raised in your area of the country. If your theory applied, I would revere Mr. Lincoln, but I do not. Generally speaking, my view of him is similar to that of Bama46.

Ole-

  I agree with you that if the country had been split up in 1861, it would not have become a world power as soon as it did, and would probably not be the superpower it is today. In fact, if it were not for Mr. Lincoln, my predecessors would not have come here over 100 years ago, and I would not now exist. That being said, I still must judge what he did (As well as someone in the 21st century can understand someone in the 19th).

Tim K-

  You might not: "Be interested in starting a fight," but that is the inevitable result of starting a thread like this. Since you like hearing different opinions, you'll get your money's worth with this thread.

Bama 46-

  I agree with you that if someone else had been elected in 1860, there would have been no war in 1861. However, I believe that there would have been one eventually. The issues had been: "cooking" for several decades, and sooner or later the pot would have boiled over.

Javal 1-

  I fail to see the analogy of Mr. Lincoln to Mr. Reagan. Lincoln is viewed as a martyr because he died for his cause. Those who admire Reagan view him as a wise voice from the past whose advice is now being ignored. But he is not a martyr.

Johan Steele-

  I fail to understand what the CSA government: "did to its own people" beyond being generally incompetent. We can rehash our previous disagreements about the Ft. Sumter matter or the legality of secession, but it would serve no purpose. I cannot agree that secession amounted to treason.

  For those still reading- here is my assessment of Mr. Lincoln. He was one of our greatest presidents. I say that because he was a skilled politician who could motivate people to do his bidding. He stuck to what he believed, and had a profound impact on history.

  That being said, I cannot revere him for his disregard of the Constitution (The Merryman matter being one of many examples). I cannot revere him for waging what I consider to Have been a war of subjugation against millions of people who no longer wished to be his countrymen.



 Current time is 12:54 pmPage:    1  2  3  4  5  Next Page Last Page  
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.4151 seconds (6% database + 94% PHP). 31 queries executed.