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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Entertainment: Books, Movies, Music & Art > Civil War in Movies and on TV > Indignation over Sherman's "March to the Sea" |
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Civil War Interactive Discussion Board > Civil War Entertainment: Books, Movies, Music & Art > Civil War in Movies and on TV > Indignation over Sherman's "March to the Sea" |
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| Indignation over Sherman's "March to the Sea" | Rating: 
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 02:52 am |
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1st Post |
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Great-Grandson of VA Slaves Member
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I wanted to remark on the intensity of the indignation personified by Dr. Stephen Davis on the Military History Channel's snippet on Major General William Tecumseh Sherman's infamous "March to the Sea", his "romp" to Savannah, via Columbia and Atlanta). It appears that Dr. Davis is adamantly opposed to any "kudos" given to Sherman for his attacks and travails through the South that hastened the end of the Civil War. Lee's realization that he was "powerless" to stop Sherman and the defections of thousands of Confederate Soldiers to protect their "homestead" from the "marauder" greatly contributed to the decision to surrender and end the terrible conflagaration that was needlessly decimating the male population of the United States. It seems that many more lives - on both sides - would have been lost if not for Sherman's bold foray into the "heart" of the South, dragging the war on and needlessly prolonging the conflict and its inevitable conclusion. The outrage expressed over Sherman's "one-sided" attacks, and Dr. Davis's vehement "outrage" at the "ferocity" of Sherman's attacks. My point is, I find it ironic that he does not express the same "outrage" at the suppression of rights, dignity and individuality of those immorally forced into the cruelest suffrage - SLAVERY - by the very same poor, helpless, mistreated and abused "citizens" he takes such great pains to defend. I CELEBRATE Sherman's treatment of the Southern "gentry", and the other abused and "momentarily oppressed" citizens of the highly revered South! Is it "unfair" that they were forced to surrender their freedom of choice, their possessions, their livelihood and their dignity for once? How sad... (My heart bleeds!) These morally deprived "bullies" long ago lost the right to protest ANY "unfair treatment" by another! Not that two wrongs make a right, but, surely they understand the concept that "MIGHT MAKES RIGHT", and that "He who has the GUNS makes the Rules"? Is this a convenient case of sudden amnesia? Fie on you, dr. Davis... Save your outrage over a mere 4 months of oppression and apply it to those who suffered 400 YEARS of it! Maybe then, I'll spare an OUNCE of compassion for your pathetic complaints about UNFAIRNESS!!! Signed: Saving My Crocodile Tears For A Real Reason...
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 01:58 pm |
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2nd Post |
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David White Member 
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We had a pretty good discussion on that based on another show on the History Channel, did you see this?: http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=811&forum_id=1 Last edited on Thu Aug 23rd, 2007 02:05 pm by David White |
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 11:36 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Kentucky_Orphan Member 
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I haven't seen this so I really should not comment on the Davis interview. But, since no-one else is jumping in I will give it a shot. You talk about Davis' indignation about Shermans march to the sea. It is possible for one to lament an action while still readily acknowledgeing it was necessary? Dropping the atomic bomb on Japan during world war 2 for instance? (I am sure many on the board will disagree with me here that the U.S. should not have taken this action)The images and just the idea of the atomic bombs destructive force is horrifying. I don't have a problem with anyone who says it was ethically repugnant and should not have been done. However, I am convinced it saved Japan and the U.S. from far greater loss of life in the long run. A lot of innocent people suffered, same is true in the southern United States-I genuinely feel sorry for both people caugth up in war at both times. Maybe Mr. Davis is thinking along the same lines with his comments on Shermans march? Like I said, I did not see the interview, I just thought I would throw that out there...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 01:17 am |
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4th Post |
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ole Member 
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A good many people consider Sherman's "march" to have been an outrage and the advent of total war. There is a point in that view. But the point is minor and highly suspect. Like the A-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we can talk about it, and it is for this reason we daily assemble before our screens and keyboards to discuss and learn from each other. Dr. Davis and all other History Professors have the stage in their arenas. They can, and are paid to, teach whatever the hell they want. As we are not in the business of suppressing thought and teaching, that is the way it is. Your only choice is to not send your children to learn their history from this or that professor. Well, it's not your only choice....you can teach your children yourself. But they do have to earn the grade in his/their classes. Welcome to the real world. ole
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 06:08 am |
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5th Post |
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Kentucky_Orphan Member
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Well said Ole. Being a college student myself, I have had my share of teachers who spout out crap from one side of the fence or the other in an attempt to politically indoctrinate students into a certain worldview. The problem I have is with the atmosphere that many create that forbids any contrarian point of view, or the introduction of fact to a conversation that inconveniently counter to the views being expressed by said professor. I recognize that this is the nature of the college establishment in America, and keep my mouth shut, write the crap they want me to write, and move on. However, I do recognize the value of learning about a subject from a different point of view than my own, and think it is very important that all people should value this. When I say crap I mean the really crazy stuff that a minority of professors try to force feed students, not merely, or exclusive to, views opposed to my own. What bothers me is that some will never be exposed to points of view, politics, etc. opposed to their own-that is where the danger lies. There is no absolute "good and evil" political party. The world is far more complex than that...and people should learn to recognize this, not be encouraged to think a certain way. I think ultra conservatives should have to take classes with hippy, san francisco professors and ultra liberals from some tobacco chewing Arkansas fella. The same principle should be applied to the study of any subject by an individual. We should have convictions, but not be blinded by them But I'm ranting now, look what you started OLE!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 07:57 pm |
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6th Post |
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liberty Member 
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Ok. I guess the root topic I'd like to address is that of slavery. Most people think of slavery as what Harriet Beecher Stowe presented it as, in "Uncle Tom's Cabin. Harriet took the absalute worst cases of slavery there ever was and deceivingly represented slavery as such in her book. She did this in order to fire up the Northerners who had NO idea of what slavery was really like. Slavery down South was ABSALUTELY NOT!!! what it was thought to be up North. Read the Slave Narratives and you will see what I mean! These slaves loved their masters. These slaves say they were treated as part of the white slave owner's family. These slaves willingly served their masters! T.J. Jackson's slave refused to be let free! I'd like to pose a question. Were the slaves better off 5 years before the war or 5 years after? Before: they had food, they had shelter, they were (the majority) were treated well. After: they have no food, they have no shelter, they can't buy land, they can't find work down south so they go up north where "their liborators" are, and the yanks themselves refuse to let the black man work! No, slavery was not as you think it was. Sherman's march WAS as you were told it was. His very name is a word I hate.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:00 pm |
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7th Post |
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David White Member
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Wow liberty.... Just wow.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:06 pm |
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8th Post |
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liberty Member
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Sorry. Maybe I was a bit *blunt* there. But, those are some of the touchiest subjects out of the whole war!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:10 pm |
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9th Post |
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David White Member
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Excuse me if I find your user name highly ironic, but would you be willing to give up your liberty no matter how pleasant your master was or even if it improved your lot?
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:24 pm |
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10th Post |
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liberty Member
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You're assuming that I support slavery. No, I as an American whose liberty was bought with my fore-fathers blood, would not give it up for anything. I treasure my liberty with my life. Last edited on Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:25 pm by liberty |
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:31 pm |
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11th Post |
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David White Member
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No, I didn't assume you supported slavery but I know you were giving excuses for the unexcusable. Do you think slaves thought any less of their liberty than you do, no matter how good the situation? Last edited on Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:32 pm by David White |
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 08:39 pm |
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12th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer 
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I know I should leave this alone....I just know it. No good can come of this Joe, don't..... Oh, what the hell... Liberty, you've got to be kidding! I'm not sure of your logic. YOUR liberty is precious, but the liberty of others is not? What is it that makes your liberty more precious than theirs? Is it the fact that your " liberty was bought with your fore-fathers blood"? Because by that definition, no first-generation American has a right to liberty. No American who doesn't have a veteran in their family tree has a right to liberty. So since I'm sure you're not saying that, can you expound?
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31st, 2007 10:44 pm |
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13th Post |
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ole Member
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You will notice, Joe, that I am remaining silent. I haven't the restraint of Mr. White or yourself. So. To avoid banishment. I will wait until tomorrow before even thinking of replying to "slaves had it good. They really did!" ole "I never met a man who desired to be himself a slave. Consider if you know something good that no man desires for himself."
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 02:16 am |
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14th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352 
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Slaves had no freedom of even their own bodies. It was illegeal to learn to read. A female slave could not say no to her master. A child or wife could be sold away from their family upon a whim... if they were even allowed to marry in the first place. 25,000 slaves followed Shermans men to the dream of freedom during the march to the Sea, 180,000 black men served the USCT... they knew which side of the flag they needed to be on for any hope of freedom and liberty. Something in the neighborhood of 20% of the slaves of the South relocated away from their masters... they were NOT content w/ slavery. Were there good slave owners? Absolutely, but there were some real scum in that group as well. Was it as brutal as South American slavery? No, would i be willing to put my wife or daughter into that kind of situation? Not only no but hell no. As to Shermans March... much of the brutality attributed to Sherman's men has been exaggerated all out of reality by the Lost Cause and its proponents. But that is a whole different thread. Read Celia, a Slave or Harriet Jacobs Life of a Slave Girl
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 11:36 am |
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15th Post |
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susansweet Member 
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My two cents thrown in. I have read the slave narratives. These interviews were done in the 30's by white interviewers with a set piece of questions. The former slaves interviewed were in their 80's and 90's . They had been trained all their lives to give the right answers to the master.(read whites). Of course they are not going to say anything bad about their former masters. Reading many of the narratives one right after the other you get this sense of I am going to say what this person wants me to say not what I really would like to say. I cannot believe that anyone today would think that slavery was a good thing. boggles the mind. Susan by the way well said Johan and Joe . David good question.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 08:07 pm |
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16th Post |
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liberty Member
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David, slaves didn't know what liberty was. For all of you, bear in mind that you're looking at slavery from a totally different perspective than the slaves. You're white and you know America's history. One of the main reasons why my liberty is so dear to me is because i know the price that was paid for it. They didn't! You've experienced liberty and freedom. You were born into it and are living in it. They didn't know what liberty was! They had never experienced it! Johan, "25,000 slaves followed Shermans men to the dream of freedom" sure 25,000 slaves followed Sherman's men. Did any one of them make it back up to the North? Not that I know of! Sherman perposelly cut them off. So much for their "dream of freedom". And yeah, they may have wanted to be free, but they sure were mournin when they were set free because all of a sudden reality hit that they didn't have anywhere to go! They had no food, no shelter, no money! Ok. Then ya'll want to know if that'd be better then not having liberty. I'm not a slave. I don't know. btw, I hope ya'll realize that slavery was not only in the South, and the North in general was not sympathetic towards the slaves!
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 09:37 pm |
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17th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer
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Well Liberty, I think you're going to receive little or no sympathy here for your views. I have to say you, more than any other new member, has me shaking my head. I visit your homepage, see the title and the proclamations plastered all over your blog, and wonder how it is that you reconcile your one set of "beliefs" with your others. I'm trying to be kind, but I admit I find it hard, as I find your views to be not only myopic and disengenious, but lacking in studious research. So I ask you again, what is it that gives you the right to judge whether it's acceptable for one set of human beings to be held as prisoners, abused and defiled at their owners will, while you would find it intolerable if others suffered the same fate? Exactly where does that type of thinking come from? You don't have to "remind" the members of this board about the north's part in slavery. And I wouldn't go as far as saying that the north went to war to free the slaves. But I know one thing for damn sure - the South went to war to preserve it. How it is that you've adopted this line of "thinking" that only those who have experieced liberty are entitled to it, and that others may freely be imprisoned, abused beaten and even killed leaves me with an unusual combination of sadness and disgust.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 10:43 pm |
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18th Post |
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liberty Member
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Before I reply I'll ask that you be a little more careful with your language. I'll try to get around to answering tonight if I have time.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 1st, 2007 11:03 pm |
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19th Post |
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javal1 Grumpy Geezer
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Having re-read my post, I find nothing to be "more careful" about. I actually feel I was quite restrained. As for your reply, that's totally up to you.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 2nd, 2007 12:50 am |
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20th Post |
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Johan Steele Life NRA,SUVCW # 48,Legion 352
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liberty wrote: David, slaves didn't know what liberty was. I might suggest a few titles to broaden your knowledge base. Celia, A Slave, Harriet Jacobs account of her life (I don't recall the title), The Slave Power, Stono, anatomy of a slave revolt (title may be off slightly). There is a lot of information out there that is less than pleasent if you have the idea that slavery wasn't all that bad. Last edited on Sun Sep 2nd, 2007 12:53 am by Johan Steele |
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